Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[tamada]

This is the report rick refers to above.

https://www.channel4.com/news/israels-e ... s-examined

It is pretty clear the UN has not substantiated the claims of UNRWA involvement in the October 7 massacre, otherwise there would be no need for the investigation currently underway by the UN Office of Internal Oversight Services (OIOS), the top UN investigatory agency.

Also a very interesting report here https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east ... main-murky

It seems the UN OIOS is still waiting for the Israeli evidence to support its claim that the 12 UNRWA staff were participants in the October 7 massacre.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ber-attack

Is this going to turn out the same way as the apparently bogus al-Shifa "Command Centre" claim?

Of course, it suits Israel's purposes to drag this out, in the hope countries will continue to withhold aid promised to UNRWA.

No more bogus than the repeated claims of imminent catastrophe such as 'virtually all' the hospitals in Gaza destroyed or the Gaza strip repeatedly "almost out of diesel" and thus power. What was one of those more recent "not quite but almost" statements from the WHO? Oh yes, "The system in Gaza is on its knees, it's more than on its knees, ..." Too early to dramatically claim it's on its hands and knees then.

Meanwhile, a senior U.N. aid official told the U.N. Security Council on Tuesday that one quarter of the population of Gaza is one step away from famine and widespread famine could be "almost inevitable" without action. Is that 'one step' about 2 foot, 2 weeks or 2 years?

The only agency that seems to be ticking along nicely is the Gaza Health Ministry that, despite lack of power, water, food, fuel, manages to give awesomely precise statistics on how many innocents have been injured or killed. Of course Hamas run the GHM so it's got to be correct, right?

[jackspratt]

No more bogus than the repeated claims of imminent catastrophe such as 'virtually all' the hospitals in Gaza destroyed or the Gaza strip repeatedly "almost out of diesel" and thus power. What was one of those more recent "not quite but almost" statements from the WHO? Oh yes, "The system in Gaza is on its knees, it's more than on its knees, ..." Too early to dramatically claim it's on its hands and knees then.

Whataboutism ...... never a great arguing point.

Meantime, the UN, and the world, is waiting for the evidence.

[tamada]

No more bogus than the repeated claims of imminent catastrophe such as 'virtually all' the hospitals in Gaza destroyed or the Gaza strip repeatedly "almost out of diesel" and thus power. What was one of those more recent "not quite but almost" statements from the WHO? Oh yes, "The system in Gaza is on its knees, it's more than on its knees, ..." Too early to dramatically claim it's on its hands and knees then.

Whataboutism ...... never a great arguing point.

Meantime, the UN, and the world, is waiting for the evidence.

Who's arguing? All I see is incessant apologising for Hamas, the true abusers of the Palestinians.

Meantime, half the world is weary of a body that makes or breaks policy based solely on what benefits the five permanent members of the security council. The other half don't give a fig.

[jackspratt]

Hamas could stop any dragging-it-out by simply agreeing to a ceasefire and releasing the hostages.

Agree - isn't this what is being negotiated at the moment?

[Udon Map]

Hamas could stop any dragging-it-out by simply agreeing to a ceasefire and releasing the hostages.

Agree - isn't this what is being negotiated at the moment?

Yes, but Hamas has rejected that plan so far. That's why Biden says that things are in the hands of Hamas right now.

[jackspratt]

So negotiations continue.

[jackspratt]

The other half don't give a fig.

If by the other half, you mean Australia, Austria, Canada, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Iceland, Italy, Japan, Latvia, Lithuania, Netherlands, New Zealand, Romania, Sweden, Switzerland, the United Kingdom, and the United States - they clearly do "give a fig".

Given they have all suspended aid to UNRWA.

Without further obfuscating - where is the promised evidence for Israel's accusation of the involvement of 12 UNRWA staff in the October 7 invasion and slaughter?

[FrazeeDK]

UNRWA has 30,000 employees. Only 300 are non-Palestinian.. So, why would anyone be surprised (UN Hq in NYC??) that UNRWA is rife with clientitis and massively infiltrated by Hamas or family and friends of Hamas. No doubt UNRWA is one of the larger employers in Gaza and the West Bank.. Hamas and/or the PA likely ensure that only their supporters get jobs there since they run the areas they control with an iron fist.. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to discover that UNRWA is required by Hamas in Gaza to hire only employees vetted by Hamas..

[Udon Map]

Without further obfuscating - where is the promised evidence for Israel's accusation of the involvement of 12 UNRWA staff in the October 7 invasion and slaughter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJVLBsCTe2A

[jackspratt]

Based on previous events, without verifiable and independent confirmation of such "evidence" by the IDF, under current circumstances I would trust it no more or less than I would trust information released by Hamas.

For those who may click on the link, it is not from the UK publication The Economist.

[Udon Map]

Based on previous events, without verifiable and independent confirmation of such "evidence" by the IDF, under current circumstances I would trust it no more or less than I would trust information released by Hamas.

If you're not fluent in Arabic, on what basis do you dispute the tape of the phone call? And if you are, please tell us exactly where the deception occurred, and what was really said.

For those who may click on the link, it is not from the UK publication The Economist.

Correct, it's from the Economic Times, the English language business newspaper with the second largest circulation in the world, second to the Wall Street Journal.

[Khun Paul]

Pouring cold water o the current slew of allegations regarding a UN agency, for years and almost since its inception various factions have used UN agencies for a variety of reasons some of them are at best dubious .

Access to Internationally accepted information is greatly sought after for those intent on causing havoc,more so when it is known that HAMS will do anything to spread words and hide people within acceptable schemes.. There is no doubt in my mind that often many working for these agencies have a desire to help the people involved but often blind eyes are turned to facilitate their endeavours.
Like the policeman with his snitch, the waters are muddied and so it is regarding this allegation . Who are we to say it really happened, those that know will never tell and HAMAS certainly will not as the UNRWA is a tool they use to assist them often unwittingly .

[jackspratt]

If you're not fluent in Arabic, on what basis do you dispute the tape of the phone call?

Based on previous events, and without verifiable and independent confirmation - its origin, ie the IDF.

[Udon Map]

If you're not fluent in Arabic, on what basis do you dispute the tape of the phone call?

Based on previous events, and without verifiable and independent confirmation - its origin, ie the IDF.

Previous deceptive events? Please be a bit more specific.

Do you similarly distrust Hamas reports, say, of the number of people killed?

[jackspratt]

Previous deceptive events? Please be a bit more specific.

Beheaded babies, and al-Shifa Command Centre to start with.

Do you similarly distrust Hamas reports, say, of the number of people killed?

Yes, as stated in my 9.17pm post last evening.

[Udon Map]

Previous deceptive events? Please be a bit more specific.

Beheaded babies, and al-Shifa Command Centre to start with.

I can see both sides of this.

Beheaded babies: It is without question that babies were killed by Hamas (and taken hostage, but not directly relevant to this conversation). On one hand, it has become clear that that initial report was false. To the extent that superior officers relied on the reports of soldiers on the scene, no problem. If they knew at the time that the reports were false, that's a different story. And regardless, the soldiers on the scene shouldn't have lied about it.

On the other hand, does the manner in which Hamas executed the babies really matter that much?

al-Shifa Command Centre: I do see this one differently. Whether it was a "command center" (sorry for the spelling, I'm American), weapons storage facility, or anything similar, it doesn't belong in a hospital. And since Israel had no direct knowledge until the soldiers got there, I give them a complete pass on this one. The fact remains that Hamas was using the hospital for its terror purposes, and hospitals are supposed to be off-limits. Their protected status is predicated on their use as medical facilities, not terrorist facilities.

[Khun Paul]

Oh dear now we are not-picking, worthy of a children's playground methinks. Most well read people will know that HAMAS has for years used major buildings schools, hospitals and the like in which civilians work ec, as a front for hiding their spurious activities and then lying ( something they do on a daily basis ) .
We should recognise that and not play games about the facts as unless you have physically been there and seen it for yourself we are only offering opinions.
THE FACT is that ever since HAMAS, took control of Gaza, they have managed to build ( thanks to the intenational donations ) a sophisticated system under GAZA using threats and intimidation to quieten their Muslim civilians, to wage a ceaseless attack on ISRAEL IN LINE WITH THEIR IDEAlS and published aims. Israel by no means the idle bystander has also engaged in retaliation for attacks mostly unwarranted on their enclaves and private dwellings.

Difficulty is that the targets are hidden amongst civilians and the other fact that HAMAS does not care if CIVILIANS are injured or killed say6s a lot about HAMAS.
Yet we have millions of people most of whom have never beenthere saying from the land to the sea free Palestine. It is free except where HAMAS is concerned

[tamada]

More pathetically ignorant chickensh*t from the cancel culture generation Z mob.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/0 ... -portrait/

[FrazeeDK]

wack-a-doo anti-semite..

[jackspratt]

wack-a-doo anti-semite..

Interesting read here:

https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/232119