Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[jackspratt]

According to these reports, genocide is not part of the allegations made by the ICC prosecutor - war crimes and crimes against humanity are.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-20/ ... /103871928

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/20 ... amas-rafah

[tamada]

According to these reports, genocide is not part of the allegations made by the ICC prosecutor - war crimes and crimes against humanity are.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-05-20/ ... /103871928

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2024/05/20 ... amas-rafah

The ICC counsel knows the meaning of genocide and including it in their charge sheet would make them look foolish. Present facts, not fiction. Since it is a war, any war crimes and crimes against humanity will be easier to prove. It will take a long time but far quicker than trying to prove something that's not happening.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Well, yes, this should be the end of the ICC; however, it is unlikely that this will be its deathknell.

Wickedly perverse move should sink the ICC
The arrest warrant for Israel’s PM subverts justice and finally destroys the court’s reputation
Melanie Phillips
Monday May 20 2024, 9.00pm BST, The Times

The decision by the International Criminal Court prosecutor, Karim Khan, to request arrest warrants for Israel’s prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and its minister of defence, Yoav Gallant, is a wickedly perverse and deeply troubling move.

Khan has also requested arrest warrants for Yahya Sinwar, head of Hamas in Gaza, Mohammed Deif, commander-in-chief of Hamas’s military wing, and Ismail Haniyeh, head of Hamas’s political bureau. He has accused the Hamas leaders of murder, extermination, torture and rape which are crimes against humanity, and of taking Israelis hostage, which are war crimes.

Khan presents this as a display of even-handedness. This itself is morally bankrupt. There can be no equivalence between a genocidal attempt at extermination and a country’s defence against it. The accusations against the Hamas trio are based on factual evidence. Those against the Israelis are wholly without foundation.

Khan accuses them of starving Gaza’s civilians, wilfully killing them, intentionally attacking those queuing for food and obstructing delivery of humanitarian aid. He says Israel has “intentionally and systematically” deprived Gaza’s civilians of objects indispensable to human survival through “the imposition of a total siege over Gaza that involved completely closing the three border crossing points … for extended periods”.

But the very opposite is the case. There has been no “total siege”. Since the beginning of the war, according to Israeli statistics, 18,255 trucks have crossed from Israel into Gaza carrying 399,580 tons of food, 59,660 tons of shelter equipment and 23,110 tons of medical supplies.

It is Hamas that has been obstructing the delivery of aid and stealing civilian supplies for its own use and to sell on the black market at inflated prices, from which it is estimated to have made some $500 million, according to an analyst at the Washington Institute and supported by Shin Bet, Israel’s domestic security agency. When Israel has opened fire around the aid trucks it has been against Hamas terrorists trying to steal their cargo.

Even more astoundingly Khan makes no mention of Egypt, which also has a border with Gaza. Yet Egypt has sealed that border and refuses to let any aid supplies through at all.

The claim that Israel’s defence forces have been wilfully killing Gaza’s civilians is also the opposite of the truth. The civilian death figures produced by the Hamas-run health ministry and recycled by the UN have been grossly inflated. After experts pointed out they were statistically impossible, the health ministry slashed them — admitting that some had been taken from the media.

Two weeks ago, the UN quietly followed suit and halved its own totals. Since the Israelis estimate they have killed about 14,000 terrorists, they have killed approximately one civilian for every combatant. This is a vastly lower proportion of civilians killed than has ever been achieved by any other country in warfare. The Israelis have taken more care not to kill civilians than any other country. Yet astoundingly, they are being accused of crimes against humanity.

The people who really have exposed Gaza’s civilians to danger are the Hamas terrorists, who have used them as human shields and cannon fodder by siting missiles and the infrastructure of warfare among apartment blocks, schools and hospitals. These are real war crimes against Gaza’s civilians, which Khan doesn’t even mention.

Khan has relied for his evidence on claims made by partisan “human rights” groups who oppose Israel’s existence and have been defaming it with lies that have inflamed protests and attacks on Jews across the world. He says that the evidence against Israel has been supplied by “multiple witnesses interviewed by my office, including local and international medical doctors”. But many of those doctors have been exposed as Hamas operatives or sympathisers.

Khan has also driven a coach and horses through the fundamental precept of the ICC. This holds that the court may only exercise jurisdiction where national legal systems fail to do so, and it must give a state time to investigate any claims that have been made against it. Yet Khan has requested his arrest warrants without even asking Israel to investigate his charges. And since the war in Gaza is still under way, that is clearly not yet possible.

Defensively, Khan says he has consulted an “impartial” panel. Yet it is stuffed with radical “human rights” lawyers who are no friends of Israel. This “impartial” panel is actually a hanging jury from the Salem school of law: verdict first, evidence nowhere.

The reputation of the court, which was all but wrecked by Khan’s two incompetent and deeply partisan predecessors, has been hanging by a thread. Far from restoring it, Khan’s move will now bury it in the eyes of all fair-minded and decent people. It will also hammer a nail into the coffin of human rights law, the legal instrument of the international “humanitarian” establishment of the UN and anti-Israel non-governmental organisations for which this kind of “lawfare” has become a principal weapon aimed at Israel’s destruction.

Doubtless under enormous pressure from both the UN and his former chums in Britain’s radical barrister sets, Khan’s preposterous move is part of the agenda for Israel’s destruction through a pincer movement of genocidal terror, brainwashed street insurrection and “human rights” lawfare. The beneficiary will be Hamas; the victims will be Israel, the rule of law and civilisation itself.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/wick ... -js9h8h65h

[jackspratt]

Well, yes, this should be the end of the ICC; .......

Let's hope not. In fact, I wish them luck in pursuing this latest investigation, and bringing it to a just conclusion.

A wild, almost fact-free polemic from Ms Phillips - who could never be accused of being an impartial or balanced commentator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips

[Laan Yaa Mo]

One could argue that she is entitled to her opinion and free to write whatever she wants based on the facts as she sees them. Most people have a bias one way or another including you, me and everyone on this forum, but this should not halt anyone from expressing their views so long as they can support said views with verifiable facts. I don't see her as a member of the extreme left or right who should be rejected out of hand.

I am sure readers here are open to hearing any counter arguments to the points she makes. That is only fair.

[tamada]

Well, yes, this should be the end of the ICC; .......

Let's hope not. In fact, I wish them luck in pursuing this latest investigation, and bringing it to a just conclusion.

A wild, almost fact-free polemic from Ms Phillips - who could never be accused of being an impartial or balanced commentator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanie_Phillips

Derides my reddit references while posting wicki ones.

[jackspratt]

I must have missed where reddit includes verifiable links to sources.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I must have missed where reddit includes verifiable links to sources.

Ms. Phillips seems to have committed the crime of switching from the Guardian to The Times (U.K.).

I just saw an interview with Dave Sharma, a Liberal Senator, in Australia, with Joe O'Brien on ABC (Australia). Mr. Sharma raised a number of the same points as were made in the article from The Times. He seems like a reasonable person and not a radical or on the extreme right. The Prime Minister seems to be avoiding the issue by saying he does not comment on cases before the court although as Sharma pointed out, he did speak on South Africa charging Israel with genocide.

Doesn't Australia have a Conservative Party? If the Liberals are Conservatives, where are the Liberals?

[jackspratt]

It is not a crime to write for either the Guardian or The Times.

It is what you write which may attract attention and criticism - as Ms Phillips has done on numerous occasions. The wiki article shows some of these - with the verifiable links below the article.

As a prominent member of the Australian Jewish community, Mr Sharma's views are not unexpected.

If the Australian Liberal Party as it exists today was a business, it would have been prosecuted long ago under trade practices legislation for making a false and misleading claims about itself ie that it is liberal.

It is nothing of the sort, although Mr Sharma could probably claim to be a classic liberal as I understand the word.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

It's the only time I have heard Mr. Sharma speak, and I was impressed enough to think if this is how liberals operate in reality, I could switch from voting conservative. I am not as impressed with Mr. Dutton.

[jackspratt]

A somewhat more balanced, and critical analysis than that offered by Ms Phillips.

https://archive.ph/MaYcK

You decide.

Thank god for The Economist.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

I prefer her analysis and her logic, and her pointing the finger at Hamas. The Economist seems to lack balance by not saying more about Hamas and its acts of terror, and goals to destroy Israel and eliminate all Jews. This may be nitpicking, but it is still important to remember what Hamas is about.

[jackspratt]

Hopefully no-one will ever forget what a despicable crowd Hamas is.

But at the same time, not forget what Israel is currently (and previously) is doing in Gaza - and to a lesser extent, the West Bank.

That is why Netanyahu's mug shot appears alongside that of Hamas political leader Yahya Sinwar.

The moral equivalence is not 50/50 at this point, but while the indiscriminate bombing of Gaza continues, it draws ever closer.

[Udon Map]

Much of what Ms. Phillips wrote is true. Egypt did seal its crossing with Gaza and prevented trucks with humanitarian supplies from entering, yet Egypt was not mentioned by the ICC. And it's true that Hamas' stated goal is the elimination of Israel and Jews. Interesting that the ICC seemed to have no problem with that, resulting in the patently offensive equating Hamas with Israel. And it's true and documented that Hamas does steal the humanitarian aid intended for Gazan civilians.

And this is also true, and not mentioned by the ICC:

The people who really have exposed Gaza’s civilians to danger are the Hamas terrorists, who have used them as human shields and cannon fodder by siting missiles and the infrastructure of warfare among apartment blocks, schools and hospitals. These are real war crimes against Gaza’s civilians, which Khan doesn’t even mention.

I don't know enough about the ICC to know if Ms. Phillips' statement that it may only exercise jurisdiction after it has given a state time to investigate allegations is true, but it is clear that that wasn't observed here.

OTOH to the extent that Israel initially sealed Gaza, thus depriving civilians of food, water, etc., that may well have been a crime. But if it was a crime for Israel, it must also be a crime for Egypt which also sealed its border crossing with Gaza.

There's much here that we don't know. But I agree with Ms. Phillips that the ICC does seem to be biased. No mention of Hamas' stated intention of destroying Israel and killing all Jews, a stated goal of genocide? Ignoring that fact does impact the ICC's credibility, IMO. Same with the UN, which voted overwhelmingly to recognize "Palestine", of which Hamas is the government.

It's inevitable that when fighting a terrorist organization (which calls itself a government) that embeds itself in the civilian population, using civilian areas and buildings to launch attacks, civilians are going to become victims. That's obviously part of Hamas' calculus.

I'm still waiting for someone here to suggest a way to fight a group like Hamas without causing civilian casualties.

[Stantheman]

Just to clarify, possibly, Palistine is currently the Gaza strip, under Hamas AND the West Bank, under the Palestine Authority.

[tamada]

I must have missed where reddit includes verifiable links to sources.

reddit doesn't pretend to be what you think wicki is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reliability_of_Wikipedia

Because Wikipedia cannot be considered a reliable source, the use of Wikipedia is not accepted in many schools and universities in writing a formal paper, and some educational institutions have banned it as a primary source while others have limited its use to only a pointer to external sources.[77][80][81] The criticism of not being a reliable source, however, may not only apply to Wikipedia but to encyclopedias in general—some university lecturers are not impressed when students cite print-based encyclopedias in assigned work.[82] However, it seems that instructors have underestimated the use of Wikipedia in academia because of these concerns. Researchers and academics contend that while Wikipedia may not be used as a 100 percent accurate source for final papers, it is a valuable jumping off point for research that can lead to many possibilities if approached critically. What may be missing in academia is the emphasis on critical analysis in regards to the use of Wikipedia in secondary and higher education. We should not dismiss Wikipedia entirely (there are less inaccuracies than there are errors of omission) but rather begin to support it, and teach the use of Wikipedia as an education tool in tandem with critical thinking skills that will allow students to filter the information found on the online encyclopedia and help them critically analyze their findings.[83]

[Laan Yaa Mo]

The opinion editor of Newsweek takes on Al Jazeera and comes out a winner over the network. Here's the video from Upfront, Al Jazeera TV,

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/upfro ... a-just-war

[jackspratt]

Much like Mr Sharma's comments you noted yesterday, Ms Ungar-Sargon's comments should not surprise anyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batya_Ungar-Sargon

(Verifiable links appear at the bottom of the article, for anyone who chooses to research further).

[tamada]

Just to clarify, possibly, Palistine is currently the Gaza strip, under Hamas AND the West Bank, under the Palestine Authority.

Unlike in the west where "from the river to the sea" gets you jail time, I saw some Bangladeshi protesters on the telly with placards that not only label Gaza and the West Bank as "Palestine", but labels the big bit in between them as "also Palestine". Nobody getting too upset about their depiction of the erasure of Israel. None of them feel the need to wear a keffiyeh either.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Much like Mr Sharma's comments you noted yesterday, Ms Ungar-Sargon's comments should not surprise anyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batya_Ungar-Sargon

(Verifiable links appear at the bottom of the article, for anyone who chooses to research further).

I like the fact that, unlike other Aljazeera hosts, this one refrained from stating that Israel was guilty of genocide. Nevertheless, many of his remarks are what one would expect from a pro-Hamas station.

By the way, do you have any evidence of anti-Israeli sentiment displayed by Aljazeera or do you believe they are just honest, neutral reporters on that station. This is just to offer some balance to your thoughts on Ms. Phillips, Mr. Sharma and Ms. Ungar-Sargon.