Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[Udon Map]

Just to clarify, possibly, Palistine is currently the Gaza strip, under Hamas AND the West Bank, under the Palestine Authority.

The West Bank (of the Jordan River) was never "Palestine". It was part of Jordan until Israel captured it in the 1967 war.

Gaza? It was part of Egypt from the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and President Nasser of Egypt ruled Gaza by decree. It went back and forth between Israel and Egypt for quite some time, until Israel finally withdrew for the last time in 2005 and dismantled all Israeli settlements at that time.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Sarah Ferguson, a respected Australian political host, was just interviewed by Joe O'Brien on ABC (Australia). Her view is that the recognition of the Palestine Authority as a legitimate Government by Norway, Ireland and Spain is premature. She agrees with the Government of Israel that there is a war to be completed and Hamas to be defeated prior making any decisions on a future Gaza Government. Israel, naturally enough, argues this recognition only serves to reward Hamas.

Furthermore, Ms. Ferguson agrees with many political pundits that the recent political decision by the ICC to charge the Prime Minister of Israel with war crimes is premature and rather silly. In addition, Israel should be given the opportunity to do the initial investigation. Why the haste?

About Sarah Ferguson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Fer ... ournalist) - wiki.

Subsequently, O'Brien had a Labor and Liberal representative on to discuss future energy sources in light of the fact that NSW will shut down its remaining coal station in 1927. I had trouble understanding the accent of the speakers. Both sides seemed to want to ensure that Australia has reliable and affordable energy in the future.

[Stantheman]

Just to clarify, possibly, Palistine is currently the Gaza strip, under Hamas AND the West Bank, under the Palestine Authority.

The West Bank (of the Jordan River) was never "Palestine". It was part of Jordan until Israel captured it in the 1967 war.

Gaza? It was part of Egypt from the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and President Nasser of Egypt ruled Gaza by decree. It went back and forth between Israel and Egypt for quite some time, until Israel finally withdrew for the last time in 2005 and dismantled all Israeli settlements at that time.

The key word is " Was". Current Israel WAS known as Palestine from 1920 to 1948. Just as it WAS known as Canaan during what is called biblical times. History changes.

[Udon Map]

Just to clarify, possibly, Palistine is currently the Gaza strip, under Hamas AND the West Bank, under the Palestine Authority.

The West Bank (of the Jordan River) was never "Palestine". It was part of Jordan until Israel captured it in the 1967 war.

Gaza? It was part of Egypt from the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and President Nasser of Egypt ruled Gaza by decree. It went back and forth between Israel and Egypt for quite some time, until Israel finally withdrew for the last time in 2005 and dismantled all Israeli settlements at that time.

The key word is " Was". Current Israel WAS known as Palestine from 1920 to 1948. Just as it WAS known as Canaan during what is called biblical times. History changes.

Sure. But the "Palestinians" claim that Israel was once their land.

1. Any proof for that claim? Any evidence of "Palestinians" as a people before Arafat? If the area was a "Palestinian" nation long ago, who were its rulers? What was its currency? What was its form of government? Why no "Palestinian" archaeological sites or finds?

2. If their claim that it was their land long ago is true, how is it that Al Aqsa mosque is built on top of the ancient Jewish temple?

3. They are now seeking approval of the U.N. If they recognize the authority of the U.N., why was the U.N.'s recognition of Israel not similarly valid?

[tamada]

Just to clarify, possibly, Palistine is currently the Gaza strip, under Hamas AND the West Bank, under the Palestine Authority.

The West Bank (of the Jordan River) was never "Palestine". It was part of Jordan until Israel captured it in the 1967 war.

Gaza? It was part of Egypt from the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli war, and President Nasser of Egypt ruled Gaza by decree. It went back and forth between Israel and Egypt for quite some time, until Israel finally withdrew for the last time in 2005 and dismantled all Israeli settlements at that time.

The key word is " Was". Current Israel WAS known as Palestine from 1920 to 1948. Just as it WAS known as Canaan during what is called biblical times. History changes.

Sure. But the "Palestinians" claim that Israel was once their land.

1. Any proof for that claim? Any evidence of "Palestinians" as a people before Arafat? If the area was a "Palestinian" nation long ago, who were its rulers? What was its currency? What was its form of government? Why no "Palestinian" archaeological sites or finds?

2. If their claim that it was their land long ago is true, how is it that Al Aqsa mosque is built on top of the ancient Jewish temple?

3. They are now seeking approval of the U.N. If they recognize the authority of the U.N., why was the U.N.'s recognition of Israel not similarly valid?

Touché!

...a pregnant pause ensues. Or, is this more of a stunned silence?

I appreciate it when the perceived "rights" of an itinerant nomadic arab minority are so summarily dismissed (Egypt and Jordan don't want them either).

The colonial powers (and oil barons) handed out flags and statehood to millions of itinerant nomadic arab tribes in order to be able to carve up the oil-rich, middle east into their lucrative fiefdoms. Saudi's and Kuwait's were blissfully ignorant of the trappings of statehood as they were of what lay below the sand, deeper than the water for their herds of goats and camels.

In the immediate post-WWII hiatus, the restive Jews capitalised on being truly the victims of a very real and recognised genocide and the shell-shocked but civilised world granted them their homeland.

Whatever Palestine is and whoever the Palestinians are, they continue to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. There are no more flags and fiefdoms to be doled out, not even by their own kind.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Very well put, yet Norway, Ireland and Spain seem ready to do some doling.

[jackspratt]

An indicted Prime Minister, of a country which thumbs its nose at orders from the World Court, says this latest atrocity was a "tragic accident", rather than just the day-to-day collateral damage his country inflicts on the innocent civilian population of Gaza.

Facing Global Outrage, Netanyahu Calls Civilian Deaths in Rafah Strike ‘Tragic Accident’


The strike on Sunday, which Israeli officials said targeted two Hamas leaders taking cover near a civilian encampment, ignited a fire that killed 45 people, according to the Gazan authorities.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/27/worl ... eaths.html

Move to the south, they said - you'll be safe there.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Tragic mistakes happen in wars, and the war against Hamas is no exception.

I suppose the U.N. is warning Hamas and its affiliates not to send rockets into Israel that might harm innocent civilians as well, or is such action permitted?

At least 45 people died in the Israeli strike on an area sheltering displaced Palestinians near the southern Gazan city of Rafah, while 65 more were wounded according to the Gaza’s civil defence agency in the Hamas-run strip.

Netanyahu said in a speech to parliament: “In Rafah, we already evacuated about one million non-combatant residents and despite our utmost effort not to harm non-combatants, something unfortunately went tragically wrong.”

Witnesses to the strike in the Tel al-Sultan neighbourhood in the northwest of Rafah described scenes of horror and carnage when the airstrike ignited a fire that ripped through tents where some 10,000 displaced people were sheltering.

“The screams of children and women are still stuck in my mind as they ask for help while they are burning,” said Moaz al-Bahri, 27. “This camp was very crowded with displaced children, elderly and women. They were killed and burned in the most horrific ways. I saw people burning alive and charred bodies, and fragments, stones, and smoke filled the sky.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rafa ... -7trp8p62t

[jackspratt]

Tragic mistakes happen in wars, and the war against Hamas is no exception.

35000+ (claimed) deaths - even when some of them are Hamas fighters - adds up to a lot of "mistakes".

Or are they?

[Laan Yaa Mo]

It does, and one would think those numbers could be much lower, in particular, if Hamas fighters did not embed themselves with the civilian population. War is a dirty business at any time, or as Chairman Mao once wrote, 'revolution is not a dinner party'.

[Doodoo]

You dont think that the Israelis are embedded within the Hamas Organization? Tit for tat in war time

[tamada]

Hamas launched rockets into Israel from locations in Rafah that were close to a mosque and near a hospital.

I wonder why they did that? Don't they know that the IDF eventually will retaliate? Are they not cognizant of the extreme risk they expose their innocent citizens to?

[jackspratt]

Your condescension is reaching new heights.

[Udon Map]

Hamas launched rockets into Israel from locations in Rafah that were close to a mosque and near a hospital.

I wonder why they did that? Don't they know that the IDF eventually will retaliate? Are they not cognizant of the extreme risk they expose their innocent citizens to?

Your condescension is reaching new heights.

But apart from the sarcastic and/or condescending attitude, Tamada does raise an interesting question. Does Hamas (the governing body of Gaza) not bear any responsibility for putting its citizens in harm's way?

[jackspratt]

Of course it does - it is self evident.

That is a narrative you, and tamada, and anyone else are welcome to discuss as much as you wish.

As far as I am concerned, it just diverts attention from what I am more interested in, and will continue talking about - highlighting the ongoing slaughter and starvation by the IDF of Palestinian women and children in Gaza, and the complicity of Netanyahu and his cronies in what are now being investigated - correctly in my view - as war crimes.

[Udon Map]

As far as I am concerned, it just diverts attention from what I am more interested in, and will continue talking about - highlighting the ongoing slaughter and starvation by the IDF of Palestinian women and children in Gaza, and the complicity of Netanyahu and his cronies in what are now being investigated - correctly in my view - as war crimes.

My questions remain, as does your choosing to ignore them. Perhaps because you don't have an answer?

1. You keep talking about Netanyahu's having committed war crimes. Yet nothing about Hamas and its own indictment by the ICC? You don't seem as bothered by what Hamas has done. And if you are, why do you talk so much about Israel's alleged war crimes but not those of Hamas?

2. Does Hamas bear any responsibility for putting its own civilians in harms way when it bases its terror activities embedded in civilian populations and locations (like schools, hospitals, etc.)?

3. Why no mention of Egypt, which closed the crossing long before Israel did? Or is it only a war crime when Israel takes an action, but not a war crime when Egypt takes the same action?

4. How does any country fight a terror group which fights from within the civilian population, thereby putting the civilians at risk?

[jackspratt]

My questions remain, as does your choosing to ignore them. Perhaps because you don't have an answer?

It seems you didn't read my answer (that you quoted) above.

And again:

2. Does Hamas bear any responsibility for putting its own civilians in harms way when it bases its terror activities embedded in civilian populations and locations (like schools, hospitals, etc.)?

Of course it does - it is self evident.

[Udon Map]

2. Does Hamas bear any responsibility for putting its own civilians in harms way when it bases its terror activities embedded in civilian populations and locations (like schools, hospitals, etc.)?

Of course it does - it is self evident.

And yet it seems that nearly all of your posts on this subject condemn Israel. Other than agreeing that Hamas "bears some responsibility for putting its own civilians in harms way", no outrage at the October attack by Hamas into Israel? No recognition of the fact that if Hamas hadn't conducted its October attack, none of this would have happened and the "Palestinian" civilians would still be alive?

I wonder if anyone in Hamas is thinking of Admiral Yamamoto's now prescient line from Tora! Tora! Tora!:

I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.

[jackspratt]

It seems the UN OIOS is still waiting for the Israeli evidence to support its claim that the 12 UNRWA staff were participants in the October 7 massacre.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ber-attack

Is this going to turn out the same way as the apparently bogus al-Shifa "Command Centre" claim?

Of course, it suits Israel's purposes to drag this out, in the hope countries will continue to withhold aid promised to UNRWA.

A follow-up to this from mid-April, which I missed while I was in Oz.

The Israeli lack of response should come as no surprise, I guess.

UNRWA Report: no proof provided on terrorist organisations links

Israeli authorities have not provided any supporting evidence to back-up accusations of UNRWA staff having participated in terrorist organisations according to an independent review.

An Independent Review Group led by Catherine Colonna, former French Foreign Minister, says that Israeli authorities have not responded to repeated requests for “the names and supporting evidence that would enable UNRWA to open an investigation.”
https://unric.org/en/unrwa-report-no-pr ... ism-links/

[tamada]

It seems the UN OIOS is still waiting for the Israeli evidence to support its claim that the 12 UNRWA staff were participants in the October 7 massacre.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... ber-attack

Is this going to turn out the same way as the apparently bogus al-Shifa "Command Centre" claim?

Of course, it suits Israel's purposes to drag this out, in the hope countries will continue to withhold aid promised to UNRWA.

A follow-up to this from mid-April, which I missed while I was in Oz.

The Israeli lack of response should come as no surprise, I guess.

UNRWA Report: no proof provided on terrorist organisations links

Israeli authorities have not provided any supporting evidence to back-up accusations of UNRWA staff having participated in terrorist organisations according to an independent review.

An Independent Review Group led by Catherine Colonna, former French Foreign Minister, says that Israeli authorities have not responded to repeated requests for “the names and supporting evidence that would enable UNRWA to open an investigation.”
https://unric.org/en/unrwa-report-no-pr ... ism-links/

War crimes, both alleged and real, are typically investigated after a war is over. Best guesstimates say that this one still had another six or seven months to go.

I suggest Mdme Colonna and her IRG invest in some patience.