Scotland Loses the Debate

[Laan Yaa Mo]

None of the debaters in Scotland made much of an impression. One person noted that Scotland is the obvious loser. One has to be saddened by the pitiful performance of the Conservative leader. Surely, they can do better than this. Has is one supposed to vote wisely with this lot to choose from?

How the leaders fared: scores out of ten in the BBC debate
Members of the public put their questions to the leaders of the five main political parties in the hour-long programme
Alex Massie
Wednesday June 12 2024, 12.01am BST, The Times

The format was unhelpful to the moderator. Some 60 minutes of debate featuring five politicians and observations from the floor all but eliminated the opportunity for in-depth discussion on any issue. There was neither time nor opportunity to challenge any of the participants on their assertions.

Given this structural handicap — for which he is hardly responsible — Jardine performed as well as anyone could reasonably hope for. Assured, even avuncular, his hand was steady on the tiller; a low-key presence whose instruction that the participants should avoid talking over one another was largely adhered to. A professional doing a professional’s job, professionally.

6/10

JOHN SWINNEY, SNP

Did his best to dominate — or bully — the early exchanges but faded from prominence in the second half. Hit his now standard lines: Labour is at best a pale imitation of the Tories, promising £18 billion of austerity. Scotland’s future should be made in Scotland by the people of Scotland, he said, while Labour is “not being straight with you”. Helpfully, was able to cite analysis from independent, non-partisan sources to back this up.

When conversation turned — as it often did — to devolved matters such as the NHS and education Swinney insisted, as Wes Streeting, Labour’s shadow health secretary, said in reference to troubles in the Welsh NHS, that “all funding roads lead back to London”. A tenable point, albeit not one which can withstand a surfeit of scrutiny.

If believed, however, it suggests that the Scottish government, led by the SNP since 2007, is oddly powerless and not responsible for any of the problems he accepts and deplores.

Swinney did not have a good answer to the best line of the evening, delivered by an audience member: “Tidy the flat before you move out, John.” The sense of the buck never stopping at Bute House was, however unfairly, palpable.

5/10

ANAS SARWAR, LABOUR

“Read my lips, no austerity under Labour” was his retort to Swinney’s accusation that a Labour government would make little difference. If nothing else, this suggested a lack of familiarity with President George HW Bush’s (subsequently broken) “Read my lips, no new taxes” promise in 1988. Still, he stressed his core point time and time again: if you want change, if you want a Labour government, you have to vote for it. “It’s time for change” and “time to put Scotland at the heart of a Labour government” came up a lot.

Sarwar promised to “make work pay” but pinned a lot of faith in the impact of a modest increase to oil and gas taxation and closing the “non-dom loophole”. As so often, he was more plausible on the big picture than the nitty-gritty of policy detail. The format allowed no consideration of the latter, however. He drew significantly greater applause when criticising the SNP’s record than when making the case for Labour’s own proposals. But no gaffes and no great harm done.

5/10

DOUGLAS ROSS, CONSERVATIVES

Oh dear. The first question was “How will your party reduce the cost of living” and Ross had no answer — none at all — to that. Citing global trends was reasonable; avoiding any and all specific policy measures in response to these was not.

This was not the only occasion at which the Tory leader was reduced to waffling, meaningless verbiage. He was at his strongest, perhaps, when deploring the SNP’s “obsession” with independence as a distraction from more immediate everyday concerns, but the overall sense remained that this is a politician who knows the game is up.

He singularly failed to answer the moderator’s question: “Why should anyone vote for a party your don’t want to lead?” and it was hard not to conclude that recent events have reduced his enthusiasm for the fray. Even when presented with a gift horse in the form of an observation about the Barnett Formula he lacked the quickness to note that Barnett ensures that per capita spending is higher in Scotland than in England. In the unlikely event they make a movie about his campaign they might have to call it “Dead Man Limping”.

2/10

ALEX COLE-HAMILTON, LIB DEMS

The shorter format — when compared to the previous STV debate — and the presence of a fifth politician (Lorna Slater) on the panel squeezed the Liberal Democrat leader’s ability to make an impression. He began his opening statement by saying, “People ask why I’m always smiling”, which made one wonder who he speaks to, and how often. “Serving communities is why [Lib Dems] get up in the morning” apparently.

He was brave enough to talk about Brexit and the need to repair a “broken relationship” with Europe and spoke well about the impact of mental health issues on an already overburdened NHS. He suggested that people are “buying tools on Amazon” to “do dental work on themselves” because waiting lists are so long. His strongest moments, again, came when offering a plague-on-both-your-houses critique of the SNP and the Conservatives alike. A fluent but marginal presence in the debate.

4/10

LORNA SLATER, GREENS

Lorna Slater seemed at times like an extra guest

Raised at least some eyebrows when she suggested the Greens want to “build better roads” but made a determined pitch for relevance as a pro-independence party outflanking the SNP from the ultra-independence left. Nevertheless, at times she seemed like an all-but-forgotten extra guest; the pal brought along by someone for reasons not even that person could recall. “I need to give Lorna Slater a chance to answer the question,” the moderator, Stephen Jardine, said at one point.

Made a vehement case for higher taxation — but only of the “super-wealthy — and condemned the Barnett-calculated block grant as a “little packet of money”. Suggested that “there are more creative and entrepreneurial ways the government can raise taxes” but, beyond taxing private jets, did not offer detail on these. Nevertheless: plausibly effective in playing to disgruntled left-wing voters who support independence. “We can set out a vision for Scotland which is fantastic” is a line that is undoubtedly true, however.

4/10

Comments(3)

Michael Lumsden
4 HOURS AGO

A combined score of 16 out of 50 for our Scottish Parliamentary leaders.

Says it all.

Michael Lumsden
3 HOURS AGO

Correction 20/50. Comment stands.


Robert Green
3 HOURS AGO

Who won? Certainly not Scotland. Poor stuff all round.

https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/ar ... -ns2q63z70

[tamada]

Worse that Trainspotting.

"Choose a job. Choose a career. Choose a family. Choose a ****** big television, Choose washing machines, cars, compact disc players, and electrical tin openers. Choose good health, low cholesterol and dental insurance. Choose fixed-interest mortgage repayments. Choose a starter home. Choose your friends. Choose leisure wear and matching luggage. Choose a three piece suite on hire purchase in a range of ****** fabrics. Choose DIY and wondering who the ---- you are on a Sunday morning. Choose sitting on that couch watching mind-numbing spirit-crushing game shows, stuffing ****** junk food into your mouth. Choose rotting away at the end of it all, pissing your last in a miserable home, nothing more than an embarrassment to the selfish, ******-up brats you have spawned to replace yourselves. Choose your future. Choose life . . ."

[AlexO]

I have no idea 'why' a bunch of jumped up Councilors who (apart from one) are solely just part of a devolved administration are even being paraded on TV as having anything to do with the UK General Election. This bunch of political charlatans will still be picking up their ridiculous salaries and perks that is the devolved gravy train that just keeps awarding mediocracy no matter what the result of the real election.

[tamada]

I have no idea 'why' a bunch of jumped up Councilors who (apart from one) are solely just part of a devolved administration are even being paraded on TV as having anything to do with the UK General Election. This bunch of political charlatans will still be picking up their ridiculous salaries and perks that is the devolved gravy train that just keeps awarding mediocracy no matter what the result of the real election.

It's a BBC-sponsored plot to make them think they're more important and relevant whereas, in the grand scheme of things, they're still just doggy paddling in the parochial wee backwater of Holyrood.

It was heartening to see the enduring Tory contempt for Scotland so magnificently portrayed by wee Dougy "Gone In Three Weeks" Ross.

[AlexO]

Tam
Perhaps you should have named the thread 'Scotland Has Lost The Plot'. The dearth of political competence so obvious in the Kiddy On Parrlymint is so bloody obvious when the "leaders" are paraded on the parochial telly. You can hardly blame Ross for trying to improve himself by entering into the real political world by putting himself up as a runner for Westminster. Devolved Administrations another FU by Liebour, never thought through and only invented because Liebour thought they were a stick on permanent shoe in in working class Scotland and Wales.

[Khun Paul]

Over the years the debate has been ongoing for independence ever since James the 6th/ aka James the First of the England .
The Scottish disdain for the English went ever further back to Robert the Bruce etc , mo0re so when they found ouit their Lairds were getting lands and money to comply with Longshanks edicts.

While I understand the need to be independent, sadly the recent past has shown that some Scots are incapable of even running a devolved Government.
The story will no doubt add more chapters of attempts and failures, they may eventually get what they deserve, but I fear not this century.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Over the years the debate has been ongoing for independence ever since James the 6th/ aka James the First of the England .
The Scottish disdain for the English went ever further back to Robert the Bruce etc , mo0re so when they found ouit their Lairds were getting lands and money to comply with Longshanks edicts.

While I understand the need to be independent, sadly the recent past has shown that some Scots are incapable of even running a devolved Government.
The story will no doubt add more chapters of attempts and failures, they may eventually get what they deserve, but I fear not this century.

The Normans knew how to run the place, and England too. Did Scotland have a Doomsday Book?

[tamada]

Over the years the debate has been ongoing for independence ever since James the 6th/ aka James the First of the England .
The Scottish disdain for the English went ever further back to Robert the Bruce etc , mo0re so when they found ouit their Lairds were getting lands and money to comply with Longshanks edicts.

While I understand the need to be independent, sadly the recent past has shown that some Scots are incapable of even running a devolved Government.
The story will no doubt add more chapters of attempts and failures, they may eventually get what they deserve, but I fear not this century.

The Normans knew how to run the place, and England too. Did Scotland have a Doomsday Book?

Yes, but some bugger took it out from the library and hasn't brought it back.

I've given up so I'm waiting for the movie now.

[AlexO]

While I understand the need to be independent, sadly the recent past has shown that some Scots are incapable of even running a devolved Government.
KP
It is a minority of Scots who want independence, despite what the Cult (SNP) claim. As for a 'Devolved Government' its not, its an Administration, even Bliar has said he regrets bowing to pressure from Slippery Salmond to change the title. The current SNP minority "Government" have shown such levels of incompetence that they even make the current crop of politicians in Westminster look positively Churchillian. Liebours great experiment has turned into a costly debacle in Scotland and nearly as bad in Wales. Time to have another Devolution referendum in Scotland, people have realised Holyrood is just another useless talking shop full of troughers intent on lining their own pockets.

[tamada]

Germany 5 Scotland 1

Still losing...

[AlexO]

Germany 5 Scotland 1

Still losing...

Aye
Thank the Gods that a German scored for us. Our lot had nose bleeds if they managed to get into the tournament favourites penalty box. Piss poor performance overall.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Scotland the Brave comes roaring back to post a 1-1 tie against mighty Switzerland. A victory over Hungary should ensure that the fairy tale continues.

Scotland live on. They have a pulse in Euro 2024 after all. A performance of real guts and bravery earned them a point from a tense, almighty scrap against Switzerland in Cologne. They secured the point they needed and delivered the display that was non-negotiable if anyone was to believe in them again after the debacle of that opening capitulation to Germany.

Here they rose, not by enough to beat a more technically accomplished Swiss team, but enough to earn an ovation from their relieved supporters. Steve Clarke and his players owed each other a revival, and owed the fans something to cling to, and now the show carries on to Stuttgart and the final group game against Hungary on Sunday. Win there and they will surely get out of a group for the first time as one of the best third-place finishers.

[tamada]

Scotland the Brave comes roaring back to post a 1-1 tie against mighty Switzerland. A victory over Hungary should ensure that the fairy tale continues.

Scotland live on. They have a pulse in Euro 2024 after all. A performance of real guts and bravery earned them a point from a tense, almighty scrap against Switzerland in Cologne. They secured the point they needed and delivered the display that was non-negotiable if anyone was to believe in them again after the debacle of that opening capitulation to Germany.

Here they rose, not by enough to beat a more technically accomplished Swiss team, but enough to earn an ovation from their relieved supporters. Steve Clarke and his players owed each other a revival, and owed the fans something to cling to, and now the show carries on to Stuttgart and the final group game against Hungary on Sunday. Win there and they will surely get out of a group for the first time as one of the best third-place finishers.

Och, haud yer wheesht can ye?

Not a bloody snowball's. Once again goal difference will send the under achieving and over hyped Jockinese packing early.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Billy Gilmour will save the day for Scotland. Had he started against the Germans, surely Scotland would have got a tie at the very least. He should rip it up vs. Hungary.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

The Scottish Government displayed a bit of sanity for a change. The issue surrounds the definition of a woman.

Definition of a woman is ditched from legislation
Activists hail vote in Scottish parliament after transgender controversy and court ruling
John Boothman
Friday June 21 2024, 12.01am BST, The Times
MSPs have accepted that they do not have the power to change the definition of “woman” following a court ruling

The definition of a woman has been dropped from legislation mandating 50 per cent female representation on public boards following a successful court challenge.

The Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act was passed in 2018. As part of that legislation, “woman” was defined as including all trans women, regardless of whether they had obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The campaign group For Women Scotland began a challenge in the Court of Session against the definition last February, resulting in the court ruling that the Scottish parliament does not have the power to change the definition of “woman”.

As such, a one-page bill was proposed by the government removing the definition altogether. On Thursday, the bill passed unanimously with the support of 108 MSPs.

Speaking before the bill’s passage, Shirley-Anne Somerville, the social justice secretary, said the amendment was “technical”, adding: “The bill does not change the policy intention of the 2018 act. We still need the boards of our public bodies to reflect the population of Scotland.”

Meghan Gallacher, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said MSPs were “spending parliamentary time today fixing yet another mess that was created by the Scottish government”.

She added: “Had it not been for women’s groups challenging this act, this amended bill would not be before us. I am pleased that we have fierce, resilient and brave women right across Scotland who will not tolerate their rights being eroded.”

Meghan Gallacher, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said “fierce, resilient and brave women” had challenged the act

A spokeswoman for For Women Scotland said: “For all the Scottish government has sought to downplay this, this amendment is a victory for women and should ensure that Scottish ministers will never again be so foolish as to attempt to overwrite the Equality Act to the detriment of women.”

The definition of woman added to the act had included trans women whether or not they had a gender recognition certificate. It read: “‘Woman’ includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment … if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.”

However, judges ruled that the definition of woman adopted in the act “impinges on the nature of protected characteristics, which is a reserved matter”.

There are a few reader's comments:


iain morse
52 MINUTES AGO

How did any of this trans rubbish get into our schools, universities and law making ?

Telling little children they 'might be in the wrong body'. Drags acts in primary. Endless pronouns. Surely this nonsense must end now.

M Sanders
3 HOURS AGO

Why was it not thought necessary to give a definition of a man? After all, since all of humanity is born from a woman’s body, surely that definition is self-evident. So, how to define a man, born of woman?

D Sneddon

Definition of a woman : “A woman is a man or a woman, or neither, and sometimes both or, from time to time, whichever one of these he or she or the undecided wish to be at a particular time. Reverse the words man and woman in this definition to define a man.” (Izzard, E. Believe Me 2018)

[Laan Yaa Mo]

The Scottish Government displayed a bit of sanity for a change. The issue surrounds the definition of a woman.

Definition of a woman is ditched from legislation
Activists hail vote in Scottish parliament after transgender controversy and court ruling
John Boothman
Friday June 21 2024, 12.01am BST, The Times
MSPs have accepted that they do not have the power to change the definition of “woman” following a court ruling

The definition of a woman has been dropped from legislation mandating 50 per cent female representation on public boards following a successful court challenge.

The Gender Representation on Public Boards (Scotland) Act was passed in 2018. As part of that legislation, “woman” was defined as including all trans women, regardless of whether they had obtained a gender recognition certificate.

The campaign group For Women Scotland began a challenge in the Court of Session against the definition last February, resulting in the court ruling that the Scottish parliament does not have the power to change the definition of “woman”.

As such, a one-page bill was proposed by the government removing the definition altogether. On Thursday, the bill passed unanimously with the support of 108 MSPs.

Speaking before the bill’s passage, Shirley-Anne Somerville, the social justice secretary, said the amendment was “technical”, adding: “The bill does not change the policy intention of the 2018 act. We still need the boards of our public bodies to reflect the population of Scotland.”

Meghan Gallacher, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said MSPs were “spending parliamentary time today fixing yet another mess that was created by the Scottish government”.

She added: “Had it not been for women’s groups challenging this act, this amended bill would not be before us. I am pleased that we have fierce, resilient and brave women right across Scotland who will not tolerate their rights being eroded.”

Meghan Gallacher, deputy leader of the Scottish Conservatives, said “fierce, resilient and brave women” had challenged the act

A spokeswoman for For Women Scotland said: “For all the Scottish government has sought to downplay this, this amendment is a victory for women and should ensure that Scottish ministers will never again be so foolish as to attempt to overwrite the Equality Act to the detriment of women.”

The definition of woman added to the act had included trans women whether or not they had a gender recognition certificate. It read: “‘Woman’ includes a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment … if, and only if, the person is living as a woman and is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of becoming female.”

However, judges ruled that the definition of woman adopted in the act “impinges on the nature of protected characteristics, which is a reserved matter”.

There are a few reader's comments:


iain morse
52 MINUTES AGO

How did any of this trans rubbish get into our schools, universities and law making ?

Telling little children they 'might be in the wrong body'. Drags acts in primary. Endless pronouns. Surely this nonsense must end now.

M Sanders
3 HOURS AGO

Why was it not thought necessary to give a definition of a man? After all, since all of humanity is born from a woman’s body, surely that definition is self-evident. So, how to define a man, born of woman?

D Sneddon

Definition of a woman : “A woman is a man or a woman, or neither, and sometimes both or, from time to time, whichever one of these he or she or the undecided wish to be at a particular time. Reverse the words man and woman in this definition to define a man.” (Izzard, E. Believe Me 2018)

[tamada]

Billy Gilmour will save the day for Scotland. Had he started against the Germans, surely Scotland would have got a tie at the very least. He should rip it up vs. Hungary.

Clarke seems very reticent on starting Billy OR bringing him on to save what's left of any bacon. On the other hand, Gilmour hasn't really lived up to the hype, even at club level.

One of Clarke's starters against Germany had only 13 games at his club all season. Yes, the pool of Scottish players with any exposure to regular, high-pressure club football is shallow but something's nae right when it comes to Gilmour and the national team manager.

[AlexO]

Gilmore was never at Celtic boys club, never at a club associated with Celtic, was a Rangers youth team prodigy.
Clarke wants the Celtic Managers job when Brenda inevitably moves on again. Need anymore.

[tamada]

Gilmore was never at Celtic boys club, never at a club associated with Celtic, was a Rangers youth team prodigy.
Clarke wants the Celtic Managers job when Brenda inevitably moves on again. Need anymore.

Explains the "13 games" decision too.

Ta
tam