Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[Doodoo]

Hamas says it accepts UN-backed Gaza truce plan, US cites 'hopeful sign'


https://ca.yahoo.com/news/news/blinken- ... 26361.html

[jackspratt]

I read the letter, but you still haven't answered the questions.

This is not about me - it's about what is happening in Gaza.

[Udon Map]

I read the letter, but you still haven't answered the questions.

This is not about me - it's about what is happening in Gaza.

You seem to feel free to express your opinion blaming Israel, -- don't want to answer these questions? Tough decisions, aren't they.

[Khun Paul]

This statement should be ap[plioed to everyone on here who only blames ONE SIDE .
More so it should apply to those with a blinkered view refusing to accept any contra argument or statement.
#
The worst waste of time is arguing with the fool and fanatic who does not care about truth or reality, but only the victory of his beliefs and illusions. Never waste time on arguments that don't make sense... There are people who, no matter how much evidence and evidence we present to them, are not in the capacity to understand, and others are blinded by ego, hatred and resentment, and all they want is to be right even if they are not. When ignorance screams, intelligence is silent. Your peace and quietness are worth more."

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Hamas says it accepts UN-backed Gaza truce plan, US cites 'hopeful sign'


https://ca.yahoo.com/news/news/blinken- ... 26361.html

Israel says Hamas rejects key elements of US ceasefire plan for Gaza
Israeli official says Hamas response to US proposal had ‘changed all of the main and most meaningful parameters’

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/middle- ... e=homepage

[Udon Map]

Hamas Rejects Biden’s Hostage Deal—Again

U.S. State Department: “Israel moved a significant way in submitting that proposal. . . . It is Hamas right now that is the barrier and the obstacle to a cease-fire in Gaza.”

From The Wall Street Journal:

President Biden’s strategy of pressuring Israel and pleading with Hamas for a cease-fire and hostage deal has met one more dead end. Hamas rejected another offer over the weekend, countering with new demands designed to throw negotiations into disarray.

As State Department spokesman Matthew Miller explained, “Israel moved a significant way in submitting that proposal,” but Hamas rejected it. “It is Hamas right now that is the barrier and the obstacle to a cease-fire in Gaza.” The Times of Israel reports that Hamas rejected every clause of the proposal brokered by the U.S., Egypt and Qatar.

Hamas now demands a six-week truce in which it releases no hostages while Israel stops fighting, withdraws from Gaza’s cities, and commits to a permanent cease-fire, a withdrawal from Gaza, and the return of all Palestinians (including Hamas) to northern Gaza. In other words, an Israeli surrender.

Only in the second phase, over another six weeks while Israel executes that surrender, would Hamas release some hostages in exchange for terrorist prisoners.

After months of negotiations over the release of 40 hostages among the women, older men and the sick, Hamas now says it can produce only 20, and it wants far more Palestinian terrorists in return. It demands 30 for each civilian hostage and 50 for each captive female Israeli soldier, including 30 terrorists who are serving life sentences.

As usual, the needs of Palestinian civilians mean nothing to Hamas, but how about the needs of the U.S. President? Mr. Biden staked his Gaza strategy on coercing Israel to make the concessions to get a deal and cease-fire. But the holdup wasn’t on the Israeli side.

The more desperate the President appeared for a cease-fire, the more distant it became. When he blamed Israel for all civilian suffering and demanded new Israeli concessions, Hamas raised its demands.

“Thank you to the Americans,” as the Israeli commentator Amit Segal put it on Tuesday, “for your deep understanding of the principles of the Middle Eastern bazaar.” He didn’t mean that as a compliment.

Hamas scorns a deal because the President has given it reason to expect to get the cease-fire it wants without releasing any hostages. Mr. Biden had been slowly delinking the two while creating a public breach with Israel. Doubtless he thought about the signal these steps would send to Dearborn, Mich. Did he think about the signal he is sending Hamas about the five American hostages who may still be alive?

Hamas is unlikely to cut a deal until it feels the knife on its neck, as it did when Israel stormed Gaza City. That yielded the release of 105 hostages. But since Mr. Biden declared himself Protector of Rafah, Hamas’s final stronghold, and Israel withdrew most of its troops, the odds of a deal have declined.

The best hope on the horizon is from Iran’s miscalculation in striking Israel directly. This gives Mr. Biden an opportunity to reset his policy and exert real pressure. When Rafah is on the table, and the terrorists in fancy suits are threatened with expulsion from Qatar, there will again be a reason to talk.

[AlexO]

Hamas Rejects Biden’s Hostage Deal—Again

U.S. State Department: “Israel moved a significant way in submitting that proposal. . . . It is Hamas right now that is the barrier and the obstacle to a cease-fire in Gaza.”

From The Wall Street Journal:

President Biden’s strategy of pressuring Israel and pleading with Hamas for a cease-fire and hostage deal has met one more dead end. Hamas rejected another offer over the weekend, countering with new demands designed to throw negotiations into disarray.

As State Department spokesman Matthew Miller explained, “Israel moved a significant way in submitting that proposal,” but Hamas rejected it. “It is Hamas right now that is the barrier and the obstacle to a cease-fire in Gaza.” The Times of Israel reports that Hamas rejected every clause of the proposal brokered by the U.S., Egypt and Qatar.

Hamas now demands a six-week truce in which it releases no hostages while Israel stops fighting, withdraws from Gaza’s cities, and commits to a permanent cease-fire, a withdrawal from Gaza, and the return of all Palestinians (including Hamas) to northern Gaza. In other words, an Israeli surrender.

Only in the second phase, over another six weeks while Israel executes that surrender, would Hamas release some hostages in exchange for terrorist prisoners.

After months of negotiations over the release of 40 hostages among the women, older men and the sick, Hamas now says it can produce only 20, and it wants far more Palestinian terrorists in return. It demands 30 for each civilian hostage and 50 for each captive female Israeli soldier, including 30 terrorists who are serving life sentences.

As usual, the needs of Palestinian civilians mean nothing to Hamas, but how about the needs of the U.S. President? Mr. Biden staked his Gaza strategy on coercing Israel to make the concessions to get a deal and cease-fire. But the holdup wasn’t on the Israeli side.

The more desperate the President appeared for a cease-fire, the more distant it became. When he blamed Israel for all civilian suffering and demanded new Israeli concessions, Hamas raised its demands.

“Thank you to the Americans,” as the Israeli commentator Amit Segal put it on Tuesday, “for your deep understanding of the principles of the Middle Eastern bazaar.” He didn’t mean that as a compliment.

Hamas scorns a deal because the President has given it reason to expect to get the cease-fire it wants without releasing any hostages. Mr. Biden had been slowly delinking the two while creating a public breach with Israel. Doubtless he thought about the signal these steps would send to Dearborn, Mich. Did he think about the signal he is sending Hamas about the five American hostages who may still be alive?

Hamas is unlikely to cut a deal until it feels the knife on its neck, as it did when Israel stormed Gaza City. That yielded the release of 105 hostages. But since Mr. Biden declared himself Protector of Rafah, Hamas’s final stronghold, and Israel withdrew most of its troops, the odds of a deal have declined.

The best hope on the horizon is from Iran’s miscalculation in striking Israel directly. This gives Mr. Biden an opportunity to reset his policy and exert real pressure. When Rafah is on the table, and the terrorists in fancy suits are threatened with expulsion from Qatar, there will again be a reason to talk.

Wish there was a, Just Agree' button on UM.
HAMAS will never agree to anything that is slightly less than the complete destruction of Israel.
As long as their propaganda machine can churn out the absolute misinformation that is accepted by hand wringing lefties and totally useless UN spokespeople trying to justify their existence's then it will never be resolved.

Genocide
From October 7 to End Feb 24
Around 30K claimed deaths according to HAMAS with unverified 15K children and about the same women, as noted before some seriously 'lucky' men running around in Gaza. But not a good performance if Genocide is the aim.

Starvation of an innocent population.
I watch Al Jazeera etc. and apart from one seriously sick child ( hope she pulls through) all I see is fairly chubby Palestinian women crying dramatically over incredibly white sheets in a supposed humanitarian disaster zone. They must have huge stocks of pristine white sheets and 'Chubby Women'.
Ongoing Genocide.
Even the HAMAS propaganda machine is starting to realise that they're constant Gobellist type of misinformation is becoming ridiculas and have scaled back the claims of Genocide ( Only 8ooo unconfirmed since end Feb 24 till now).

The guys supposedly in charge of the 'Genocide' of the Palestinians need to be jailed for degradation of duty.

No one wants to see humans suffering but surely HAMAS would win many brownie points if they released the remaining hostages and put the pressure on Israel to agree to 'at least' a ceasefire.

But, as long as the bosses of HAMAS are safely ensconced in luxury hotels in Qatar there will not be a solution to what is going on.
Life is cheap if your not on the firing line.

[jackspratt]

Life is cheap if your not on the firing line.

That seems to be the case - disproportionality - in both sides of this conflict.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Of course, it is going to be disproportionate unless both sides agree that once the number of deaths on both sides is about equal, the firing should stop. War, however, doesn't work that way.

Alex O, don't forget the Hamas leaders living high on the hog in Turkey.

[jackspratt]

War, however, doesn't work that way.

It does, when one side has (let's say) 90% of the offensive capability, and the absolute capacity to be more selective when indiscriminately bombing predominantly civilian targets.

[Laan Yaa Mo]

War, like revolution, is not a dinner party. Too bad that Hamas started this latest mess. They would know that Israel would strike back, and strike back hard. Why were they counting on it? What does Hamas have to gain from Israel's bombing campaign?

[AlexO]

War, however, doesn't work that way.

It does, when one side has (let's say) 90% of the offensive capability, and the absolute capacity to be more selective when indiscriminately bombing predominantly civilian targets.

Eh, no it doesn't.
If you go to war with an aggressor who has no scruples (and knows you have better military capabilities), who will gang rape your females, torture and murder your people, take hostages (old and young) and parade them like trophies to the "innocent" population who celebrate in front of terrified prisoners' then gently, gently is not normally the way forwards.

[Udon Map]

War, however, doesn't work that way.

It does, when one side has (let's say) 90% of the offensive capability, and the absolute capacity to be more selective when indiscriminately bombing predominantly civilian targets.

And just think of how much lower the civilian death toll in Gaza would be if Hamas had built bomb shelters for the people it governs instead of tunnels for its terror personnel and weapons storage. Or even allowed the civilian population to shelter in the hundreds of miles of tunnels it has already built. Hamas, of course, doesn't care about the people it governs. It cares only about destroying Israel regardless of the cost to the Palestinian people.

[tamada]

War, however, doesn't work that way.

It does, when one side has (let's say) 90% of the offensive capability, and the absolute capacity to be more selective when indiscriminately bombing predominantly civilian targets.

Not at all sure if the tactical weapon that can isolate and surgically remove the hidden Hamas operative with Al Jazeera press credentials, from his wife, bairns and Israeli hostages inside their 2-bedroom flat in a refugee camp has been invented yet. Not one with air delivery anyways.

As long as the "90 percenters" continue to respect any Norwegian-brokered, UN sanctioned and White House endorsed cease fire while the other side continues to fire rockets at their civilians, there's hope.

[jackspratt]

Some common-sense and reality at last.

Israel's chief army spokesman has appeared to question the stated goal of destroying the Hamas militant group in Gaza in an apparent rare public rift between the country's political and military leadership.

Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, the face of the Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) daily war briefings and military videos, made the comments during an interview on Israeli TV on Wednesday.....

......."This business of destroying Hamas, making Hamas disappear — it's simply throwing sand in the eyes of the public," Mr Hagari told Israel's Channel 13 TV.

"Hamas is an idea, Hamas is a party. It's rooted in the hearts of the people — whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong."

He warned the group will remain in control of the Gaza Strip unless Israel "develops something else to replace it".....

...... He also said a point must be reached where hostages are returned in a manner that is not a military operation as it would be impossible.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-20/ ... /104001430

[AlexO]

Some common-sense and reality at last.

Israel's chief army spokesman has appeared to question the stated goal of destroying the Hamas militant group in Gaza in an apparent rare public rift between the country's political and military leadership.

Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari, the face of the Israel Defense Forces' (IDF) daily war briefings and military videos, made the comments during an interview on Israeli TV on Wednesday.....

......."This business of destroying Hamas, making Hamas disappear — it's simply throwing sand in the eyes of the public," Mr Hagari told Israel's Channel 13 TV.

"Hamas is an idea, Hamas is a party. It's rooted in the hearts of the people — whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong."

He warned the group will remain in control of the Gaza Strip unless Israel "develops something else to replace it".....

...... He also said a point must be reached where hostages are returned in a manner that is not a military operation as it would be impossible.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-06-20/ ... /104001430

Perhaps the other side will now stop the pathetic claims of genocide, deliberate starvation of the population, be honest about casualty numbers and numbers of children and females killed and wounded or is "common sense" to come from one side only. Just a thought.

[jackspratt]

Admiral Hagari is a bit late to the party for those claims to be withdrawn, his epiphany notwithstanding.

[Udon Map]

"Hamas is an idea, Hamas is a party. It's rooted in the hearts of the people — whoever thinks we can eliminate Hamas is wrong."

This is a central issue, obviously. To what extent is Hamas [still] rooted in the hearts of the people, the "Palestinians" whom Hamas purports to govern?

NPR: Gazans are becoming more openly angry with Hamas for the war's toll on civilians
https://www.npr.org/2024/02/07/12298567 ... -civilians

Christian Science Monitor: ‘Hamas gambled with our lives’: Gazans are now daring to speak out
https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle- ... -speak-out


And well before the October, 2023 attack, people seemed to be getting disillusioned with Hamas.

The National News (this appears to be based in the UAE): Gazans stage rare protest against Hamas rule
https://www.thenationalnews.com/mena/20 ... amas-rule/

Foundation for Defense of Democracies: Palestinians in Gaza Protest Hamas Rule, Rising Cost of Living
https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/07/31 ... of-living/

Le Monde: Thousands of marchers in Gaza, in rare public display of discontent with Hamas
https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international ... 136_4.html#

Al•Monitor: Despite Hamas' crackdown, Gaza protests continue in rare defiance
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/20 ... e-defiance

Amnesty International: Gaza: Hamas must end brutal crackdown against protesters and rights defenders
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/press ... defenders/

Associated Press: Thousands take to streets in Gaza in rare public display of discontent with Hamas
https://apnews.com/article/gaza-hamas-d ... 6ce3709672

[Laan Yaa Mo]

Is anyone able to answer the question posed by Udon Map. Why doesn't Hamas open up their tunnels as shelters from bombing for the people they govern. I don't see or hear journalists asking that question often, nor does the U,N. seem interested. Shouldn't it be considered a war crime?

[Khun Paul]

There we have it the nub of the problem , by invoking the Ways and Means Act, Hamas by hook or by crook, managed at last ( dare I say it ) to manage to energise a goodly proportion of the people, whom, they7 claim, they take of to suddenly wake up and to protest the situation, tons and tons of AID disappearing , frequent injustices done in the name of Allah or some other Moslem deity basically turning Gaza into a war zone all in the name of HAMAS despite at least 75+ % not involved in any way with HAMAS ostensibly.
The worm has begun to turn and let us hope this trend continues.