TAX on Income from Abroad

[Chriss]

Not sure if it’s been posted on UMap but this video has been shared around on expat etc FB pages.

https://youtu.be/ljy7qdhy4VU?si=9is3_8S2bUbsBox0

[anefarious1]

I do not know what to say. Maybe stick to wood working?

The US and Eritrea are unique in that they tax THEIR CITIZENS on WORLDWIDE INCOME regardless of their location. Such a policy is not being considered by Thailand. Even if it was, it wouldn't be relevant to expats residing in Thailand. There can be no reason to bring up these 2 countries when dozens upon dozens of other countries tax worldwide income of non-citizen residents which is what Thailand IS actually considering.

You really don’t understand what you are spouting.

The US taxes more than just citizens on worldwide income

The policy that’s being discussed in Thailand (it’s extremely unlikely to be implemented but is being discussed) is the taxation of worldwide income for everyone who is tax resident. The global taxation of anyone with Thai citizenship could be being discussed but it would be in Thai and irrelevant to the vast majority of non Thai’s

Your claim of there being dozens and dozens of countries that have that policy is currently unsupported and unsubstantiated. It is possibly true however unless your profession is as a tax advisor specialising in advising citizens of dozens and dozens of countries it is probably speculative and Trumpian

I agree that the "US taxes more than just citizens on worldwide income". I never once claimed otherwise. It is you that has spouted all sorts of uninformed opinions here. Let's get into it:

You wrote, "I only know of one country that has the taxation system of which you speak “ taxation of citizens, and green card holders on worldwide income,” and that is the USA. AFIK that is unique."

That's you responding to me talking about taxation of non-citizen residents around the globe. At that point, you didn't even understand the issue at hand. And that's why you then shared this link, originally from stuart52, as if I'm unaware of what TRD is considering:

https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/ge ... come-rules

Again you'd only post that link if you didn't yet catch on to the distinction between taxing citizens on worldwide income and taxing residents based on physical presence as per tamada's post. You were confused and probably in tamada's camp which is okay, but there was no acknowledgement later.

Then you even stated, "I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of tax authorities do not have rules on taxation that are not enforced." This oddly worded sentence makes me laugh since we both know right here in Thailand the tax on remittance has, all this time, been completely unenforced. As a former auditor, I know that even the IRS doesn't actually enforce all of their tax laws.

Anyway...

What happened is tamada's quick Google search failed him. The US and Eritrea have only one thing in common and it has nothing to do with any new tax policy being considered here. The commonality doesn't even concern expats, period. But I see you now understand that distinction and you're explaining it here as if nobody had already done so. Feels like Groundhog day, not the first time! You play it off well though! Well played!

What's important is to get the correct information out.

Now just have a look at the sources I provided you earlier, as you requested, and then explain it to the group that many countries already are legally able to tax worldwide income (net of any DTAs in place) based on residency ie. 180 or 183 days even without remitting funds. It is quite common unlike the rare commonality shared by the US and Eritea. To insinuate that Thailand may join these two is misinfo (which you know now) and leading people astray.

Now please tell me what I don't understand about this tax issue?

[Fuzzy Ken]

Lots of talk about foreigners in Thailand being obliged to pay tax, but does anyone know exactly what the tax rates are and will there be any minimum levels? In the UK, for example, one must be earning above a certain amount before being eligible for tax.

[jackspratt]

The income bands and tax rates are shown on page 17.

[Fuzzy Ken]

Thanks for that Jackspratt, I have not had time to listen to the entire interview, but I do have some questions.

First of all, I wonder how much one will have to pay a Thai tax expert to assist in filing your obligatory tax return, particularly if you are under the 150000 Baht annual earnings with, therefore, no tax liability.

Secondly, bringing in 800000 baht which must be lodged in a Thai bank, to meet visa requirements, will that be taxed as earnings? If considered as earnings 800000 Baht ($21714) would attract a tax of 20% equaling 160000 Baht or $4342…

Thirdly, when leaving Thailand for a holiday or permanently, will passport control check to see if your taxes are paid up to date?

Please forgive me if these matters have already been answered

[Chriss]

Thanks for that Jackspratt, I have not had time to listen to the entire interview, but I do have some questions.

First of all, I wonder how much one will have to pay a Thai tax expert to assist in filing your obligatory tax return, particularly if you are under the 150000 Baht annual earnings with, therefore, no tax liability.

Secondly, bringing in 800000 baht which must be lodged in a Thai bank, to meet visa requirements, will that be taxed as earnings? If considered as earnings 800000 Baht ($21714) would attract a tax of 20% equaling 160000 Baht or $4342…

Thirdly, when leaving Thailand for a holiday or permanently, will passport control check to see if your taxes are paid up to date?

Please forgive me if these matters have already been answered

If the 800k is taxable it would be split into the different tax brackets, first 150k exempt, up to 300k 5%, the remaining 10%… I would have thought…

[Whistler]

I know of one case where a guy was not allowed to leave until tax was paid

[Bandung_Dero]

I know of one case where a guy was not allowed to leave until tax was paid

Thanks for that???? Very imformative!
Looking forward to seeing the post, from any source, related to an expat without work permit being forced to pay income tax.

We can all speculate as much as we like but let's see what happens when it comes to Visa extensions, boarder restrictions etc. end of March 2025.

[Bandung_Dero]

<Snip>

I would like people's thoughts on this conundrum, my accountant is non-committal on this subject but does see the problem for the Thai Government as they actively and overtly sanction the double pricing scenario

Gimme a break, the idiots still can't sort the BS 10K Baht "digital wallet" election promiss let alone taxing expats and giving then concessions??

[tamada]

I know of one case where a guy was not allowed to leave until tax was paid

Back in the 80's, many foreign squatters, myself included, needed to obtain a tax clearance certificate from the local revenue office before the end of our stay. This was surrendered at Don Muang in order to get to the immigration booths. No tax clearance certificate, no exit.

Relevance to the current debate on tax? None whatsoever.

[newtovillagelife]

If this proposed tax on Worldwide income goes through, can Thailand tax yearly growth within 401(K) s, and Roth IRAs???
Many other Western countries have equivalent government registered plans also.

[Bandung_Dero]

Back in the 80's, many foreign squatters, myself included, needed to obtain a tax clearance certificate from the local revenue office before the end of our stay. This was surrendered at Don Muang in order to get to the immigration booths. No tax clearance certificate, no exit.

Relevance to the current debate on tax? None whatsoever.

How did the check in staff in the 80s know you had a work permit or even care?? A paper ticket and passport and you're on ya way!!!! Very simplistic computers if any. Never required during my work permit days 2001 to 2004.

I do agree with your last comment.

[sometimewoodworker]

Thanks for that Jackspratt, I have not had time to listen to the entire interview, but I do have some questions.

First of all, I wonder how much one will have to pay a Thai tax expert to assist in filing your obligatory tax return, particularly if you are under the 150000 Baht annual earnings with, therefore, no tax liability.

The allowance is actually ฿160,000 for a single non married tax resident https://www.uobam.co.th/en/tax-calculation
However there are more allowances available and many will be able to add ฿60,000 for a spouse and ฿30,000 for each dependent parent (probably parents-in-law also count)

As to the cost of of a tax expert I am actively investigating that. You need not only a Thai tax expert but someone who knows the details of your home countries DTA. For a high net worth individual I have been quoted a minimum of £3,000, this of course is ridiculously high for the requirements of the majority of readers of these posts. I have hopes that a more (very much more) reasonable cost is available for those who are not independently wealthy

Secondly, bringing in 800000 baht which must be lodged in a Thai bank, to meet visa requirements, will that be taxed as earnings? If considered as earnings 800000 Baht ($21714) would attract a tax of 20% equaling 160000 Baht or $4342…

It very much depends on if it were income earned after 1/1/2024, if so and you had paid no tax on it outside Thailand then the tax due would be ฿75,000. However if it were savings or income accrued prior to 1/1/2024 then there would be no tax due

Also the tax bands mean that only ฿50,000 is taxed at 20%

Thirdly, when leaving Thailand for a holiday or permanently, will passport control check to see if your taxes are paid up to date?

Unlikely but TIT and so totally unpredictable

From the above information it is very likely that many individuals will require personal advice, as circumstances vary widely it is unlikely that there will be more than a handful of people in a similar enough situation to allow for advice to be shared.

It is also going to be rather interesting to know how those who have been using agents will be affected. It is quite possible that there maybe a totally unexpected tax liability.

[tamada]

Back in the 80's, many foreign squatters, myself included, needed to obtain a tax clearance certificate from the local revenue office before the end of our stay. This was surrendered at Don Muang in order to get to the immigration booths. No tax clearance certificate, no exit.

Relevance to the current debate on tax? None whatsoever.

How did the check in staff in the 80s know you had a work permit or even care?? A paper ticket and passport and you're on ya way!!!! Very simplistic computers if any. Never required during my work permit days 2001 to 2004.

I do agree with your last comment.

It had absolutely nothing to do with work permits. I was working in Australia when it started (remember that?) and using the Thai 30-day visa-exempt entry with extensions when needed. It's very easy (and common with immigration) for the local bureaucracy to add 'another piece of paper' to the list if things needed by staffers at the airport. They in turn don't need to know what they are or why they're collecting them.

It was for a few years in the early 1980's. The requirement ended as mysteriously as it started.

[sometimewoodworker]

As to the cost of of a tax expert I am actively investigating that. You need not only a Thai tax expert but someone who knows the details of your home countries DTA. For a high net worth individual I have been quoted a minimum of £3,000, this of course is ridiculously high for the requirements of the majority of readers of these posts. I have hopes that a more (very much more) reasonable cost is available for those who are not independently wealthy

I have just received an email with a quote for “ tax counselling meeting THB 17,000 + 3% Operating Expenses (plus 7% VAT)”

There is another company who have quoted “tax experts are available for consultations. Their hourly rates range from THB 15,500 to THB 19,000, depending on their level of seniority.”

These are on a more reasonable level than the THB 140,000 mentioned above.

[tamada]

For the Brits, the attached linked document (free) should tell you how the UK-Thai DTA works before you hire a Thai tax accountant (not free) to tell you how it works.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... x-treaties

[Bandung_Dero]

It had absolutely nothing to do with work permits. I was working in Australia when it started (remember that?) and using the Thai 30-day visa-exempt entry with extensions when needed. It's very easy (and common with immigration) for the local bureaucracy to add 'another piece of paper' to the list if things needed by staffers at the airport. They in turn don't need to know what they are or why they're collecting them.

It was for a few years in the early 1980's. The requirement ended as mysteriously as it started.

Yes and I WILL find some of our olde Longreach/Blackhall photos!

That leaves a lot of questions unanswered!
If not work permit holders why were they selecting normal travellers/tourists for tax liabilities?

[sometimewoodworker]

For the Brits, the attached linked document (free) should tell you how the UK-Thai DTA works before you hire a Thai tax accountant (not free) to tell you how it works.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... x-treaties

The general purpose of hiring a Thai tax accountant is generally to find all the allowances applicable to reduce Thai tax liability as well as to know exactly how the revenue department is interpreting the U.K. DTA and what exact classes of funds remitted to Thailand are taxable along with structuring those payments in the most tax efficient way. That along with preparing the tax return is likely to be of benefit to many.

Just hiring a tax accountant to tell you what is in the agreement would be a rather pointless exercise. However you may have noticed Article 2.2 that states “The Convention shall also apply to any tax which is subsequently imposed by either Contracting State” since the agreement was signed in 1981 it is unlikely that there have been no changes or additional elements covered, this will be where a tax accountant will have potentially useful knowledge.

[tamada]

For the Brits, the attached linked document (free) should tell you how the UK-Thai DTA works before you hire a Thai tax accountant (not free) to tell you how it works.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... x-treaties

The general purpose of hiring a Thai tax accountant is generally to find all the allowances applicable to reduce Thai tax liability as well as to know exactly how the revenue department is interpreting the U.K. DTA and what exact classes of funds remitted to Thailand are taxable along with structuring those payments in the most tax efficient way. That along with preparing the tax return is likely to be of benefit to many.

Just hiring a tax accountant to tell you what is in the agreement would be a rather pointless exercise. However you may have noticed Article 2.2 that states “The Convention shall also apply to any tax which is subsequently imposed by either Contracting State” since the agreement was signed in 1981 it is unlikely that there have been no changes or additional elements covered, this will be where a tax accountant will have potentially useful knowledge.

The RD website has clear and concise information on all applicable allowances. These are also mirrored on the websites of several international accounting businesses. A Thai tax accountant will be able to confirm this.

uk.gov website will have the current, standing DTA information. There have been no changes since the 1981 agreement, otherwise uk.gov would carry them. A UK tax accountant will be able to confirm this.

[Barney]

I received my completed Thai tax return and received 7 bht credit return.
The Thai tax company used was very exact.
We'll see what happens this year if the new law becomes a reality.