Israel under attack from hamas, war declared.

[Udon Map]

The body count, verified by so many independent bodies is not propaganda, it sadly is very real.

AFAIK, it's not verified by any independent bodies. Every body count I've seen has two disclaimers along the lines of "according to the Hamas Health Ministry" and "Hamas does not distinguish between civilians and combatants in its casualty reporting."

[rick]

This murder occurred in the West bank, read the article, it was clearly a callous 'you'r in my way' killing. And not for the first time. Too many are ready to accept the IDF's version of events. They lie, maybe as,much as Hamas.

[AlexO]

Interesting see 100% unwavering support for Israel by some here. There is no such thing as one side being 100% pure as the driven snow in any war.

When you have independent bodies on the ground observing what is going on, it is not reasonable to dismiss their statements easily. Of course Hamas has a propaganda agenda, but ditto the IMF

This is a dirty little war and there is blood on the hands of both parties, but ]there is no mistaking the fact that the initial victim of this war, Israel, is now the aggressor. The body count, verified by so many independent bodies is not propaganda, it sadly is very real.

Interesting to see how your supposedly neutral role as a rational observer seems to have taken a turn in favour of Hamas. Surely, Hamas knew Israel would hit back and hit back hard when it launched the attack on Israel. This raises the question, what was the purpose of the Hamas attack? Do you think the body count would be lowered if Hamas permitted their tunnels to be used as bomb shelters? Has the other side stopped their aggression? Aren't rockets being fired into Israel on a regular basis. Finally, does IMF stand for International Monetary Fund?

Sensible answer required Whistler.You capable?

[jackspratt]

Does the IDF get verification from independent bodies when they claim an attack on a school, with almost 100 casualties, is aimed at Hamas militants?

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/10/worl ... chool.html

After all, similar attacks are happening far too frequently.

[Udon Map]

Does the IDF get verification from independent bodies when they claim an attack on a school, with almost 100 casualties, is aimed at Hamas militants?

Reporting from within Gaza is pretty much controlled by Hamas.

The fact is that the situation for Gazans regarding food, for example, is not nearly as bad as reported.

https://youtu.be/J1zGS_24AsY

[AlexO]

IDF soldiers murder Palestinian customs officer, caught on surveillance camera.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd735zvg1q9o

As usual, an IDF denial, but the camera proves otherwise.

Did you see the supposed CCTV evidence? Or do you just believe the reporter had access to the CCTV evidence, or perhaps just perhaps they are repeating the script given to them by others.

[Udon Map]

IDF soldiers murder Palestinian customs officer, caught on surveillance camera.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd735zvg1q9o

As usual, an IDF denial, but the camera proves otherwise.

Did you see the supposed CCTV evidence? Or do you just believe the reporter had access to the CCTV evidence, or perhaps just perhaps they are repeating the script given to them by others.

The reporter, Paul Adams, apparently writes and reports only about the horrors that the IDF is visiting on Gazans. I was unable to find an article by him which discussed the October 7th massacre, let alone one comdemning that action, of which Hamas is proud.

FWIW, he was born in Lebanon, spent two years in Yemen, and, not surprisingly, speaks Arabic.

He has posted other stories/articles/reports online with the videos embedded. That he didn't include the alleged video in this story, rather only a still showing nothing, does make me wonder.

[jackspratt]

The reporter, Paul Adams, apparently writes and reports only about the horrors that the IDF is visiting on Gazans. I was unable to find an article by him which discussed the October 7th massacre, let alone one comdemning that action, of which Hamas is proud.

One could make similar observations of implied bias about HonestReporting.

https://honestreporting.com/

[AlexO]

The reporter, Paul Adams, apparently writes and reports only about the horrors that the IDF is visiting on Gazans. I was unable to find an article by him which discussed the October 7th massacre, let alone one comdemning that action, of which Hamas is proud.

One could make similar observations of implied bias about HonestReporting.

https://honestreporting.com/

Pratty my Good Chap.
I cannot think of one time anyone has quoted your new found source as factual evidence.
Both sides will obviously give exaggerated sides to their stories, some far more exaggerated in the hope of generating anti opposition hand wringing.
Perhaps if the Hamas Propaganda Machine geared down to more factual and believable levels of lying then more sympathy would be forthcoming from the slightly less biased observers.

[noosard]

Hamas seems to get plenty of sympathy

[Whistler]

Interesting see 100% unwavering support for Israel by some here. There is no such thing as one side being 100% pure as the driven snow in any war.

When you have independent bodies on the ground observing what is going on, it is not reasonable to dismiss their statements easily. Of course Hamas has a propaganda agenda, but ditto the IMF

This is a dirty little war and there is blood on the hands of both parties, but ]there is no mistaking the fact that the initial victim of this war, Israel, is now the aggressor. The body count, verified by so many independent bodies is not propaganda, it sadly is very real.

Interesting to see how your supposedly neutral role as a rational observer seems to have taken a turn in favour of Hamas. Surely, Hamas knew Israel would hit back and hit back hard when it launched the attack on Israel. This raises the question, what was the purpose of the Hamas attack?

Turn in favour of Hamas? My statements made no such viewpoint. Hamas don't care less about anybody but their own self interest. They are too cunning to state it outright, but I think they are probably delighted at the ferocity of the Israeli reaction, it will radicalise more Palestinians and has the potential to fill the ranks of Hamas fighters.

The tide of international sentiment is making Israel look like a pariah state. They cannot beat Hamas with their super aggressive behaviour, it is now counter productive, unnecessarily cruel and has already alienated many who were previously pro Israel. I am firmly pro Israel's right to exist, but not the super hawks in that country, i do not support illegal settlers and provocative policies that do nothing to promote peace in the region.

Until a two state policy is enacted, there will be no peace. As for Hamas, they have no redeeming characteristics and thrive on the back of the misery of the Palestinian people

[jackspratt]

I cannot think of one time anyone has quoted your new found source as factual evidence.

Just as you couldn't be bothered to look at the ABC video of the (alleged) murder of the Afghan civilian by Soldier C until shamed into doing so, you appear to have not looked at the video posted above at 12.13am by UM.

If you had, you should have noticed its source, which is UM's, not mine.

[AlexO]

Hamas seems to get plenty of sympathy

Noosard
My sympathies are or the poor unfortunates caught up in Hamas's irrational hatred of Israel and followers of the Jewish faith.
I cannot and will not give the slightest support to any terror organisation who enforces its will on the people that it claims they are fighting for or slaughters, rapes and kidnaps it victims to be used as pawns in its barbaric quest for power.

[AlexO]

I cannot think of one time anyone has quoted your new found source as factual evidence.

Just as you couldn't be bothered to look at the ABC video of the (alleged) murder of the Afghan civilian by Soldier C until shamed into doing so, you appear to have not looked at the video posted above at 12.13am by UM.

If you had, you should have noticed its source, which is UM's, not mine.

Of on another wee ranting ramble are we.
As for ABC videos, you serious?
You posted the link not UM.

[jackspratt]

You posted the link not UM.

Try really hard, and see if you can connect the dots.

[Udon Map]

Until a two state policy is enacted, there will be no peace. As for Hamas, they have no redeeming characteristics and thrive on the back of the misery of the Palestinian people.

A two state policy is far from a reality, because, as I've said before, Hamas cares much more about killing Jews and destroying Israel than it does about creating a safe and stable living situation for its people. The "Palestinians" have repeatedly been offered a two state solution and peace, and they have rejected it every time.

[Whistler]

I disagree Paul. If Israel.used their occupation cleverly, they have a chance to facilitate fair election and allow the non combatants a voice. Declare hamas and other ratbag organisations zero role in choosing. Isrealis are clever people, but the way they are conducting themselves is dumb.

Australia did this in East Timor, not an exact parallel but not a bad blueprint to try

[Sport]

Some on here just dont get it, Whistles, Jackspratt, rick and the like. hamas and other looney countries want to eradicate all Jewish people and Israel. There never will be peace in the middle east.

[jackspratt]

Some on here just dont get it, Whistles, Jackspratt, rick and the like. hamas and other looney countries want to eradicate all Jewish people and Israel. There never will be peace in the middle east.

Alternatively, it is you and some others on here who just don't get it, Sport.

Although you are correct - there won't be peace in the Middle East while Israel, under the indicted Netanyahu, resists a 2 state solution (starting with a ceasefire in Gaza) which sidelines the other 2 malign players ie Hamas and Iran.

In case you are in doubt:

For weeks, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel has denied that he is trying to block a cease-fire deal in Gaza by hardening Israel’s negotiating position. Mr. Netanyahu has consistently placed all blame for the deadlocked negotiations on Hamas, even as senior members of the Israeli security establishment accused him of slowing the process himself.

But in private, Mr. Netanyahu has, in fact, added new conditions to Israel’s demands, additions that his own negotiators fear have created extra obstacles to a deal. According to unpublished documents reviewed by The New York Times that detail Israel’s negotiating positions, Israel relayed a list of new stipulations in late July to American, Egyptian and Qatari mediators that added less flexible conditions to a set of principles it had made in late May.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/13/worl ... talks.html

[Udon Map]

I disagree Paul. If Israel.used their occupation cleverly, they have a chance to facilitate fair election and allow the non combatants a voice. Declare hamas and other ratbag organisations zero role in choosing.

Perhaps, and your approach certainly sounds reasonable. But how do you get Hamas to release the remaining hostages and the bodies of the ones that they've already murdered?