Land ownership? Is it possible ?

[rickfarang]

The last I heard:

Ways for a foreigner to control real property inside Thailand:

1. Be the director of a company that owns the property.
Regular filing of audited tax reports is required. In late May, 2006, it appeared that the government is starting to closely examine applications for transfers to companies with foreign stockholders. The announced intent is to prevent foreigners from using Thai companies to control and effectively own land. I recommend against this, though some people still think this is a good method.

2. Loan somebody the money to purchase the property and register the loan with the Land Department.
This way, you can prevent the property from being sold. The cost is currently the same as the tax on the initial transfer of title, which is about 2%. The taxes are usually split between the buyer and seller. The total cost is about 4% (there is some discussion that this may be reduced to an almost insignificant amount in the near future.) Use of this method could expose you to a risk in the future: If the property value rises significantly, the registered owner of the property could refinance the house, leaving the lender out of the picture.

3. Lease the property and register the lease with the Land Department.
The cost is currently the same as the tax on the initial transfer of title, which is about 2%. The total cost is about 4% (there is some discussion that this may be reduced to an almost insignificant amount in the near future.) A complication with leasing is that somebody, somewhere, will need to declare income from the lease. Keep the lease price as low as you think it can be without completely blowing the credibility of the deal. The contract can gurantee that the lease will be renewable for up to three consecutive terms of 30 years each.

4. This may be the best solution for many. Formally register the right to control and use the property for the rest of your life with the Land Department. My atorney referred to this as a "superficies." One needs only appear at the land office with the person who holds title to the property, the original title document (the chanote) the title holder's ID Card, a copy of the page(s) of the housbook for the house in which the title-holder is registered (This is the first page, and if there are other pages, the page with the title holder's name one it. This housebook does not need to be the housebook for house for which you intend to register the superficies.), and your passport. As my lawyer had predicted, there were moments during the process in which it was apparent that if a moderate sum of money were to be discreetly slipped under the table, the process would move along more swiftly. As it was, no money was slipped, and the process took about an hour. the cost was 75 Baht plus a few baht to copy some documents.

[UdonExpat]

These two sites provide a basic description of options for foreigners.

The Usurfuct has your name on the back of the chanote. A lease is separate from the chanote. As the usurfuct doesn't require a lawyer, they often don't mention that option. The siam-legal site mentions it, the thailand-lawyer site omits it.

http://www.thailand-lawyer.com/land_purchase.html

http://www.siam-legal.com/realestate/th ... eigner.php

[Aardvark]

We are all learning a lot from this guy's, keep it up

[Yossarian]

And the reason for wanting to own over-priced scrub land in the middle of nowhere is ...? Why would you want to live somewhere where you are not wanted?

Foreigners are obsessed with real estate in Thailand precisely because they cannot own it. There are quite a few nice countries in Asia where you can do such things as: own land, obtain multiple-year visas, and live without being referred to as a lower species.

[patriot]

And the reason for wanting to own over-priced scrub land in the middle of nowhere is ...? Why would you want to live somewhere where you are not wanted?

Foreigners are obsessed with real estate in Thailand precisely because they cannot own it. There are quite a few nice countries in Asia where you can do such things as: own land, obtain multiple-year visas, and live without being referred to as a lower species.

First TROLL of the year; get back under the bridge!!!!!!!!!!!!

[aznyron]

yos. share with us the info I don't want to buy any thing in real estate but it would be nice to be treated good and be wanted in the country you are living in

[Paul Taylor]

It will never happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[arjay]

And the reason for wanting to own over-priced scrub land in the middle of nowhere is ...? Why would you want to live somewhere where you are not wanted?

Foreigners are obsessed with real estate in Thailand precisely because they cannot own it. There are quite a few nice countries in Asia where you can do such things as: own land, obtain multiple-year visas, and live without being referred to as a lower species.

Well, I don't see that post as trolling. I consider it reasonably accurate.

Though agreed everybody's views, objectives and priorities are not the same.

[Yossarian]

I just think that we (and I include myself) get caught up in a certain psychology whereby if somebody says we can't have something it makes us want it even more regardless of how desirable it may be to achieve that objective. In this case, the Thai people, through their government representatives, have clearly stated through the enactment of various laws ranging from the status of aliens regarding visa regulations to the status of aliens regarding land ownership or the operation of businesses that foreigners are welcome to come to Thailand to live for a period of time contingent on the fact that the money they spend was earned outside of Thailand and that the foreigners do not acquire or accede to any significant rights in the Kingdom. In other words, we are welcome to come here to spend our money and have families, so long as we remain foreigners.

We had a saying back home that you can try and put lipstick on a pig but all you do is end up with an angry pig. I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would posit that a lease or Thai company or life estate is equivalent to fee simple ownership or property. You may get a real estate agent or lawyer to convince you of that but that dog don't hunt. I mean, if you were back in England or the US or Germany and a real estate agent tried to sell you a house and, by the way, you are going to pay for the house but somebody will own it and you'll and up as a tenant, you'd still be laughing about it; there's no way any of us would do that. Yet, we come here to Thailand, look at a cement-poured house on absolutely worthless scrub land in the middle of nowhere, and that same real estate agent says it and it sounds like a good deal.

A lot of us may rationalize our treatment as "lesser equals" in this society by saying it is cheaper to buy land and live here (and did I mention the women?) so it is a trade-off between human dignity on the one hand and cost of living on the other.

In a way, we get what we deserve because we don't demand any better. Does it really matter whether the "farang" gets a lease or life estate or Thai limited company to own the land? In my opinion it doesn't matter what lesser interest in property the "farang" gets from a legal point of view. What does matter is that when foreigners engage in this type of economic behavior, it supports an apartheid-like system. And the reason why we live in an apartheid-like system is because the Thai people, including our wives and girlfriends, want it that way.

BTW, I am not familiar with this term "TROLL". Would somebody be so kind as to enlighten me?

[Yossarian]

BTW, thanks for the support Arjay

[arjay]

Yossarian, A Troll or trolling on an Internet Forum I believe means someone who is trying to provoke (reaction) or antagonise others, or stir things up.

[Aardvark]

Looks like we've all been guilty of that at one time or another

[Yossarian]

Isn't that the point of an internet message board though? Aren't we trying to exchange ideas and provoke reactions to challenge our own ideas? If we all agreed it would be pretty boring, in my opinion.

[gulfman]

These ownership laws apply to all non-Thais, not just to falangs: and one of the objectives of the Thai government is to prevent economic migration (ie the poorer moving to Thailand), the same as all western countries. There is a certain logic that says if you can't afford to throw away a million baht on a house then you are not 'rich' enough to be welcome in Thailand. And let's be honest with ourselves, you can't buy a decent car for that money in the West, and certainly not build a brick garage for it!!

So, as is constantly repeated on this forum - if you can't afford to lose it.....

[arjay]

An aside re Trolls:- Description quoted from Yahoo:

The term developed as a way of describing the activity of persons whom as a form of lowbrow entertainment would repeatedly antagonize some particular individual or group on an Internet forum by posting inflammatory or derogatory remarks. The term "troll" was used for the perpetrator because they are intentionally behaving like a sport fisherman dangling their "bait" for anyone who would rise to take it... The term for this type of fishing is called trolling and means "to move around repeatedly; to angle for with a hook and line drawn through the water" - given this context the descriptive allusion is pretty obvious.

A troll is a person who posts intentionally derogatory, abusive or controversial content, with the intent to create trouble and stir up a certain 'group' that they are targeting.

Yossarian, I think the above maybe a better description of a troll; as distinct from someone who is simply wanting to explore or open up a topic for healthy discussion. I saw your post as the latter variety!

[Yossarian]

These ownership laws apply to all non-Thais, not just to falangs: and one of the objectives of the Thai government is to prevent economic migration (ie the poorer moving to Thailand), the same as all western countries. There is a certain logic that says if you can't afford to throw away a million baht on a house then you are not 'rich' enough to be welcome in Thailand. And let's be honest with ourselves, you can't buy a decent car for that money in the West, and certainly not build a brick garage for it!!

So, as is constantly repeated on this forum - if you can't afford to lose it.....

I would just point out that a law, while appearing to be neutral on its face, can have the effect of discrimination. For example, there was a famous case in the US wherein the City of San Francisco enacted regulations prohibiting laundry shops in wooden structures. On its face, the law was non-discriminatory as it applied to all laundry shops. However, it had the effect of closing down most laundry shops operated by Chinese-Americans. Considered in light of the then discriminatory attitude of European Americans, who controlled the organs of government, against Chinese Americans, who were widely discriminated against, it is reasonable to conclude that the law, though neutral on its face, was in fact discriminatory in its effect.

When considering the Thai law prohibiting foreign ownership of land, I would, similarly, ask you to consider its effect. Does it effect the Burmese laborer who would like to invest one million Baht on a home in Thailand? Probably not as the reason for hiring Burmese laborers (illegally) is that they are poorer than Thais. Asian people in general are also probably less interested in investing in land in Thailand considering the proximity to their home countries. I think that mostly the law has the effect of discriminating against people of European ancestry (including North Americans), while appearing to be neutral on its face.

I would also draw a distinction between foreigners who are single or married to other foreigners and foreigners who are married to Thai nationals. The fact that, as a foreigner, you can never hope to have an equal relationship with your Thai spouse due to these discriminatory laws goes to the heart of our most important relationships (with spouse and kids) and, thus, is inimical to the concepts of fairness and justice which should be a part of any society.

On the whole, I think that the economic effect of opening the property market to foreigners would be negligible as foreigners are already participating in the property market through proxies. If anything, though, the increase in demand would tend to drive prices higher. By definition, people from poorer countries cannot afford the same standard of living as Thais so the main threat would be from wealthier countries such as Europe and America.

In all fairness, even places like America are not immune to the fears of foreign interests "owning America" (think the Japanese in Hawaii during the 1980s.) The difference is that you don't let paranoia become official government policy.

I would just note that the price of automobiles is much cheaper in America than in Thailand. In fact, at todays onshore exchange rate, 1,000,000 Baht would buy you about 29,000 USD. For 23,000 USD (about 775,000 Baht), you can buy a brand new Honda CRV in America.

[fatbas***d]

I had a laugh at the Bangkok bank deal, I tried it with them and they wanted 3 x the value of the property deposited or equal security, why would you bother?
As mentioned before, The company route to owning land seems dead in the water, leasing is safe enough but expensive.
The way to go ( I think) is usufruct, I found a good explanation by a western lawyer of the details here

http://teakdoor.com/williams-legal-sect ... iland.html

[Franco]

Very useful information, fatbas***d,

Usufruct looks like the best way to go and cheapest, I'm soon to complete purchase of our house and just looking for some peace of mind for my cash outlay, when I'm dead I dont care what happens. Has anyone actually set up a Usufruct in Udon? if so can they reccommend a lawyer who is familiar with this document and what the expected costs will be to have this document put in place?

[new2udon]

Hey yossie plenty of good scrub land in new orleans, very cheap a little water damage maybe but for a troll it ok i bet

[Ba Bob]

Yossie we can all complain about discrimination and how unfair the laws are but if they didn't have them then every piece of land up to 10km back from the coast every island and most of Bangkok,Chang Mai and Issan would now be in foreign hands.