Hi All,
Would be interested in getting the general opinion of owning Property in Udon. (I don't really want to discuss the legal implications of a Farang owning property in this thread as know lots has been posted before about this.)
Do you think it is a good investment to buy property in udon with a view to keeping it for next 15 - 20 years?
Would be most interested in residential but would consider Commercial if thoughts were this is a better prospect.
Any ideas of likely % increases on property over this period (historical or predicted).
Many Thanks,
Deano.
Longer term investment or not - Owning Property in Udon
Well the last few years it has went up like gangbusters.
My house 1.4 house in the next phase 1.8
First phase not sure how long ago that was, exact same floor plan 900K
How that will be in 15 years no clue. The one thing I seem to notice at least with farrangs and Thai wifes they really donlt seem to want a used home.
I think if I were to look at an investment I believe I woudl more to low cost Thai rental apartments, nothing fancy. something that woudl rent out between 1500 & 2000 K a month
But you would have to calculate where yougot a return on the investment IE how many years, that one is beyond me. Upkeep on something like that should minimal.
I think the advantage in a personal home is simply having things your way.
My house 1.4 house in the next phase 1.8
First phase not sure how long ago that was, exact same floor plan 900K
How that will be in 15 years no clue. The one thing I seem to notice at least with farrangs and Thai wifes they really donlt seem to want a used home.
I think if I were to look at an investment I believe I woudl more to low cost Thai rental apartments, nothing fancy. something that woudl rent out between 1500 & 2000 K a month
But you would have to calculate where yougot a return on the investment IE how many years, that one is beyond me. Upkeep on something like that should minimal.
I think the advantage in a personal home is simply having things your way.
-
handsome-Dane
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 179
- Joined: December 12, 2007, 7:01 pm
-
saint
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 3516
- Joined: February 28, 2008, 5:31 pm
- Location: On lookout duty ,spotting for snipers .
my answer would be yes, there are several reasons why, firstly property in thailand is following the trend world wide at the moment, selling but slowly, this is a short term thing and you could get a bargain, overall i would say that property is rising between 7 to 10 % over inflation and has done so for the 3 years ive been here. in my opinion this will increase dramaticaly once this banking crisis is over. udon is becoming a very popular town with a growing farang population, add to this the mining prospects nearby, the government proposals of a upgraded rail link to this area to include crossing into loas, which i believe is relevent to the minerals here, and the fact that we have a good airport will make udon a satalite town for all the new activities. thats the long term part answered. short term you have land prices rising quit dramaticaly at the moment, raw material cost esculating, steel prices alone have increased by 30% in the last year and are still rising, so to cement but to a lessor degree, both are major components to a thai house, to the extent of 60%, and will continue to rise year on year, add the two together and even short term houses prices are going to increase stubstantialy just to cover these increases.
-
fatbas***d
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 536
- Joined: December 1, 2005, 3:47 pm
- Location: Udon
Don't see too much evidence of rising prices around here, in Radius of 1km there are at last count, 18 developed properties for sale, most been on the market for two years or more. Some absolute bargains around but no takers.
The main reason being that when Mr Farang has been convinced by his new squeeze to "invest" in a property, she doesn't want a second hand one, she wants a spanking new place, despite the fact that you can pick up good second hand places up at around 60% of the cost of a new one. It will probably need a coat of paint and a freshen up but still a bargain in anyones language.
The second problem with the second hand market is that the Thai are reluctant to sell at bargain prices, I guess its a loss of face thing, in many case they would prefer to abandon their old property rather than let it go at a bargain price, again around here there are probably another 10 properties in this category.
Previously perfectly good houses just left to rot away. No one wants to lose money on their property, but many don't understand the concept of "meeting the market price"
The other problem is that many of the sellers are absentee, they get a freind to sell the property for them.
The friends only interested in getting her cut and other than that no vested interest in selling the place.
Last week I put a reasonable offer for a place thats been for sale for nearly 3 years.
The owner lives overseas but the "agent" wouldn't put the proposal to the owner and certainly wasn't prepared to give my contact details to do so myself.
So with all this unsold stock around even given the rising prices of new materials its going to be difficult to make any capital gain.
The main reason being that when Mr Farang has been convinced by his new squeeze to "invest" in a property, she doesn't want a second hand one, she wants a spanking new place, despite the fact that you can pick up good second hand places up at around 60% of the cost of a new one. It will probably need a coat of paint and a freshen up but still a bargain in anyones language.
The second problem with the second hand market is that the Thai are reluctant to sell at bargain prices, I guess its a loss of face thing, in many case they would prefer to abandon their old property rather than let it go at a bargain price, again around here there are probably another 10 properties in this category.
Previously perfectly good houses just left to rot away. No one wants to lose money on their property, but many don't understand the concept of "meeting the market price"
The other problem is that many of the sellers are absentee, they get a freind to sell the property for them.
The friends only interested in getting her cut and other than that no vested interest in selling the place.
Last week I put a reasonable offer for a place thats been for sale for nearly 3 years.
The owner lives overseas but the "agent" wouldn't put the proposal to the owner and certainly wasn't prepared to give my contact details to do so myself.
So with all this unsold stock around even given the rising prices of new materials its going to be difficult to make any capital gain.
Re: Longer term investment or not - Owning Property in Udon
I think land is a good investment for the wife if held for 15-20 years!Of course location location location is the key.Structures require to much maintenance and upkeep due to inferior building materials and construction,plus the small market for second hand properties!deankham wrote:Hi All,
Would be interested in getting the general opinion of owning Property in Udon. (I don't really want to discuss the legal implications of a Farang owning property in this thread as know lots has been posted before about this.)
Do you think it is a good investment to buy property in udon with a view to keeping it for next 15 - 20 years?
Would be most interested in residential but would consider Commercial if thoughts were this is a better prospect.
Any ideas of likely % increases on property over this period (historical or predicted).
Many Thanks,
Deano.
In and around Nong Khai,property on the Mekong river front and central city property has the most potential ,but require a higher investment to start with!
thanks for all the advice....will be in town next month so gonna have a look at some property to get a better feel.
Just need to find some money now!
Was interested in some of the comments about Thai's not wanting to live in 2nd hand homes. I've recently come across this in China where you can lose a lot of money on a house as soon as it's lived in. However if you buy new and don't live in it or rent it out, it's still considered 'new' when you come to re-sell. Is this the same kind of principle in thailand? (Bit like buying a new car in the UK and losing lots as soon as you drive it out the showroom.)
cheers,
Deano.
Just need to find some money now!
Was interested in some of the comments about Thai's not wanting to live in 2nd hand homes. I've recently come across this in China where you can lose a lot of money on a house as soon as it's lived in. However if you buy new and don't live in it or rent it out, it's still considered 'new' when you come to re-sell. Is this the same kind of principle in thailand? (Bit like buying a new car in the UK and losing lots as soon as you drive it out the showroom.)
cheers,
Deano.
-
arjay
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 8349
- Joined: October 2, 2005, 12:19 pm
- Location: Gone to get a life, "troll free"
Can someone explain to me that this house you've bought, that's going up in value each year, when you come/want to sell it, how do you do so, or more exactly what are you selling?
Is it a house in your TW/TG's name, with say 20 years left on the lease, - so is it being sold on a 20 year remaining lease? Or is she selling it freehold, in which case it can only be bought by another Thai? Or is it held by your company and the company selling it, along with the implications as to whether the Thai company was ever properly set up in the first place?
I think it's one thing for Thais to sell to Thais - freehold property in an open market, though against the background as pointed out above, that Thais don't like buying second hand properties (which I too have heard from several sources)! It's quite another for farangs to sell to farangs, or should I say for farangs to buy, when they are not buying a clear and unfettered/freehold asset. So your resale market is not a clear open one .
Is it a house in your TW/TG's name, with say 20 years left on the lease, - so is it being sold on a 20 year remaining lease? Or is she selling it freehold, in which case it can only be bought by another Thai? Or is it held by your company and the company selling it, along with the implications as to whether the Thai company was ever properly set up in the first place?
I think it's one thing for Thais to sell to Thais - freehold property in an open market, though against the background as pointed out above, that Thais don't like buying second hand properties (which I too have heard from several sources)! It's quite another for farangs to sell to farangs, or should I say for farangs to buy, when they are not buying a clear and unfettered/freehold asset. So your resale market is not a clear open one .
-
saint
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 3516
- Joined: February 28, 2008, 5:31 pm
- Location: On lookout duty ,spotting for snipers .
deankham, thais with farangs will want a new house, to show off of coarse. but if you build a quality western style house with good facilities you will still find a buyer second hand or not. and no its not quit as bad as buying a new car in the U K, but your question was as a long term investment, and i agree with fats, there is a lot of property for sale at the moment, a lot of it is in my opinion is sh~t. from what i see and have learnt since ive been here is that property here is no differant to the U K or anywhere else, you build a basic house you get basic money for it, you build a quality house you get good money for it. and of coarse location as anywhere else is the key. theres lots of land for sale but good building plots in good areas are few and far between and of coarse command good money. i learnt a long time ago in the U K that there was two basics to making money on houses. first you buy the first plot on a good development and wait till the development is finnished to sell. second you buy the worst house in the best street in the best area you can afford and renovate it. these principles are very similar in thailand. but avoid the thai trap of squeezing the biggest house onto the smallest plot, even thais want outside space now, but a lot of developers here have not woken up yet to this new trend.
Land and house are two different things.
Land is always the same anywhere: Location, location, location.
Used houses don't sell well in Thailand. When you look at the quality of the construction and maintenance it is understandable. The recent cost increases in new construction may change the desirability of used places. There is still a lot of undeveloped land in Muang Udon. Recently the cost of that land has increased a lot. At some point buying used will make economic sense. Time will tell....
I have noticed a small swing towards better maintenance in the past few years, but that is mostly in urban, not rural areas.
Home construction methods are amateurish compared to western standards and electrical and plumbing systems are less demanding. It is not possible to build to western standards as the building methods are different, but it is possible to improve on the Thai methods. I don't think the increased costs of improving on the Thai methods will mean much to Thai's, but it may improve the value to another westerner.
Land in developments sells at 3-6 times comparable land immediately outside the development. A large premium when you consider that once the development is completed the developer will probably disappear and the services will be the same as outside the development. The developments look very nice when new, but a visit to a development that is 8 or 10 years old will give a better idea of how it will look later.
A real estate investment in an urban area will probably increase in value over 20 years. Not because of the house, but because of the land. Any increase in rural areas will be considerably less.
Land is always the same anywhere: Location, location, location.
Used houses don't sell well in Thailand. When you look at the quality of the construction and maintenance it is understandable. The recent cost increases in new construction may change the desirability of used places. There is still a lot of undeveloped land in Muang Udon. Recently the cost of that land has increased a lot. At some point buying used will make economic sense. Time will tell....
I have noticed a small swing towards better maintenance in the past few years, but that is mostly in urban, not rural areas.
Home construction methods are amateurish compared to western standards and electrical and plumbing systems are less demanding. It is not possible to build to western standards as the building methods are different, but it is possible to improve on the Thai methods. I don't think the increased costs of improving on the Thai methods will mean much to Thai's, but it may improve the value to another westerner.
Land in developments sells at 3-6 times comparable land immediately outside the development. A large premium when you consider that once the development is completed the developer will probably disappear and the services will be the same as outside the development. The developments look very nice when new, but a visit to a development that is 8 or 10 years old will give a better idea of how it will look later.
A real estate investment in an urban area will probably increase in value over 20 years. Not because of the house, but because of the land. Any increase in rural areas will be considerably less.
-
Prenders88
- udonmap.com
- Posts: 3482
- Joined: July 7, 2005, 12:51 am
- Location: Udon Thani
Just seen this in the Bangkok Post, but don't hold your breath Thai Government "considers".
Bangkok Post: 15 May 2008
FOREIGN PROPERTY OWNERSHIP Government considers longer leasehold terms
PARISTA YUTHAMANOP & KANANA KATHARANGSIPORN
The government is considering allowing greater foreign ownership in property firms and extending leasehold periods beyond 30 years to stimulate the business, according to Finance Minister Surapong Suebwonglee.
The amendment would stimulate market segments that have been hit by sluggish demand, he said yesterday.
''This has been discussed quite seriously over the past two to three months. We need to think about the percentage of shareholding and leasing access compared with the number of years. The crisis that we have had in the past two years led us to think and look at a new paradigm,'' he said at an investor forum held by Euromoney.
Dr Surapong said the government would consider new rules on leasing more on par with the region. The government has also abandoned a controversial proposed change to the Foreign Business Act, which tightened the definition of foreign ownership to promote foreign direct investment, he added.
Longlom Bunnag, the chairman of the real estate agency Jones Lang LaSalle (Thailand), said property related to tourism and recreation was expected to benefit the most from any changes because of high demand.
''Existing laws allow foreigners to secure 50-year leaseholds in Bangkok's red zone, which is the commercial area such as on Sathon Road. ... I think Phuket, Samui and Pattaya may be in the government's sights for changes in regulations to benefit villas, resorts and long-stay travellers,'' he said.
Mr Longlom said the idea could improve Thailand's competitiveness, since many countries now offered longer leaseholds _ for instance, 50 years in China and Hong Kong and 99 years in Singapore. ''Thailand has the shortest eligible period for lease contracts.''
Issara Boonyoung, vice-president of Housing Business Association, disagreed with the idea of allowing foreigners to freely conduct transactions related to exchange of properties because it could restrict housing access for Thais.
''Thai people have lower purchasing power than foreigners. If the government allows foreigners to sell or buy freely, there will be no land left for Thais,'' he said.
Foreign ownership should have conditions and limitations, he said. For example, the government should continue protecting land for agricultural purposes due to its low prices, otherwise the country may lose most of its land to foreigners.
Regarding the increase in the foreign quota in condominiums from 49%, the government should limit the size of land plots to prevent developers from using legal loopholes to register townhouses as condo units, Mr Issara said.
However, Assoc Prof Manop Bhongsadadt of Chulalongkorn University said the issue was ''very sensitive'' and unlikely to survive the three readings required in Parliament to change the law.
It would be easier to extend leasehold periods from the current 30 years to 90 years as in the UK, he said. ''It will turn illegal transactions as in Phuket and Samui into legal transactions. The government is likely to collect more taxes.''
Mr Issara also agreed that extended leaseholds would create transparency and prevent the use of nominees. However, he said longer leaseholds and higher foreign quotas in condominiums should be allowed only in specific areas.
Bangkok Post: 15 May 2008
FOREIGN PROPERTY OWNERSHIP Government considers longer leasehold terms
PARISTA YUTHAMANOP & KANANA KATHARANGSIPORN
The government is considering allowing greater foreign ownership in property firms and extending leasehold periods beyond 30 years to stimulate the business, according to Finance Minister Surapong Suebwonglee.
The amendment would stimulate market segments that have been hit by sluggish demand, he said yesterday.
''This has been discussed quite seriously over the past two to three months. We need to think about the percentage of shareholding and leasing access compared with the number of years. The crisis that we have had in the past two years led us to think and look at a new paradigm,'' he said at an investor forum held by Euromoney.
Dr Surapong said the government would consider new rules on leasing more on par with the region. The government has also abandoned a controversial proposed change to the Foreign Business Act, which tightened the definition of foreign ownership to promote foreign direct investment, he added.
Longlom Bunnag, the chairman of the real estate agency Jones Lang LaSalle (Thailand), said property related to tourism and recreation was expected to benefit the most from any changes because of high demand.
''Existing laws allow foreigners to secure 50-year leaseholds in Bangkok's red zone, which is the commercial area such as on Sathon Road. ... I think Phuket, Samui and Pattaya may be in the government's sights for changes in regulations to benefit villas, resorts and long-stay travellers,'' he said.
Mr Longlom said the idea could improve Thailand's competitiveness, since many countries now offered longer leaseholds _ for instance, 50 years in China and Hong Kong and 99 years in Singapore. ''Thailand has the shortest eligible period for lease contracts.''
Issara Boonyoung, vice-president of Housing Business Association, disagreed with the idea of allowing foreigners to freely conduct transactions related to exchange of properties because it could restrict housing access for Thais.
''Thai people have lower purchasing power than foreigners. If the government allows foreigners to sell or buy freely, there will be no land left for Thais,'' he said.
Foreign ownership should have conditions and limitations, he said. For example, the government should continue protecting land for agricultural purposes due to its low prices, otherwise the country may lose most of its land to foreigners.
Regarding the increase in the foreign quota in condominiums from 49%, the government should limit the size of land plots to prevent developers from using legal loopholes to register townhouses as condo units, Mr Issara said.
However, Assoc Prof Manop Bhongsadadt of Chulalongkorn University said the issue was ''very sensitive'' and unlikely to survive the three readings required in Parliament to change the law.
It would be easier to extend leasehold periods from the current 30 years to 90 years as in the UK, he said. ''It will turn illegal transactions as in Phuket and Samui into legal transactions. The government is likely to collect more taxes.''
Mr Issara also agreed that extended leaseholds would create transparency and prevent the use of nominees. However, he said longer leaseholds and higher foreign quotas in condominiums should be allowed only in specific areas.
At this point in the process of preparing to live in Thailand, I will rent.
I would rather have my money invested in the markets than invested in land or a home in Thailand under the current conditions.
If the laws are unclear, the water is muddied, and I've always followed this strategy: "When in doubt, don't."
If the laws are clear, the future is not clearly secure where Thailand is concerned. The country has not shown a willingness to "grandfather in" those expats who have arrived during an earlier time. As the rules change, everyone is affected regardless of when they showed up.
If someone has some information to allay my fears, I'd be happy to read it. I've only formulated my current opinion of things based on the last two years of reading and investigating and discussing these issues.
I would rather have my money invested in the markets than invested in land or a home in Thailand under the current conditions.
If the laws are unclear, the water is muddied, and I've always followed this strategy: "When in doubt, don't."
If the laws are clear, the future is not clearly secure where Thailand is concerned. The country has not shown a willingness to "grandfather in" those expats who have arrived during an earlier time. As the rules change, everyone is affected regardless of when they showed up.
If someone has some information to allay my fears, I'd be happy to read it. I've only formulated my current opinion of things based on the last two years of reading and investigating and discussing these issues.
-
laphanphon
that's for sure, how many coups, how many constitutions. not in our grandchildrens lifetime. it they ever do get it right, or close to it, just remember south africa. politic and publid opinions change. the usa can't even get things right. these are supposed to be educated people with so called freedom of thought/expression. doesn't exist there, and will never exist here.Unfortunately our lifetime will not be long enough to see the proof
i have zero trust in american politics/politicians/business interest, i consider here to be 100 years behind where the usa is now.
just my opinion, based on personal experiences over few decades of life.
no arguiements here.Your on the right path Mark
Deankham,
If I were you I would not buy in Thailand,there are way to many risks.If you are looking for long term Investment look to-wards Europe as this place is fraught with danger for farangs.You ask about 15-20 years investment who is to know who is going to be in charge of the Country in the next few years and what pleasant suprises they will have for the farang,if you build in Thailand you should invest the total ammount of money you are prepared to loose or the same ammount you can walk away from,dont believe in all this it has appreciated 10-15% in the last few years thats a load of crap,the truth being that you will find it almost impossible to sell your home over here nobody wants second hand,you can look in area you want and you will find hundreds of farangs trying to sell,I have been lucky I have owned 3 houses and sold the first 2 to friends and the last one to the guy who took up with my ex missus,I have invested my money back in Europe and I take from the Interest to pay rent as that is what I have done for the last 4 years I would never buy another property over here,good luck to you.
If I were you I would not buy in Thailand,there are way to many risks.If you are looking for long term Investment look to-wards Europe as this place is fraught with danger for farangs.You ask about 15-20 years investment who is to know who is going to be in charge of the Country in the next few years and what pleasant suprises they will have for the farang,if you build in Thailand you should invest the total ammount of money you are prepared to loose or the same ammount you can walk away from,dont believe in all this it has appreciated 10-15% in the last few years thats a load of crap,the truth being that you will find it almost impossible to sell your home over here nobody wants second hand,you can look in area you want and you will find hundreds of farangs trying to sell,I have been lucky I have owned 3 houses and sold the first 2 to friends and the last one to the guy who took up with my ex missus,I have invested my money back in Europe and I take from the Interest to pay rent as that is what I have done for the last 4 years I would never buy another property over here,good luck to you.
Last time I was in Udon I saw continuous developments around ringroad and on road going to Nong Khai on the left hand side(development with green tiled roofs,next door another development?),do the Thais think that there will still be an a future big influx of farang to buy up all these properties.Must admit rent for the moment until the end of year seems the most appropriate action right now until we see how the people's party cope with the resurrection of the street rallies.
All I seem to hear from farang here in Bangkok is where should they go next,vietnam,phillipines,malaysia all because of more favourable visa options, not much talk about whether they would invest in property or not.
All I seem to hear from farang here in Bangkok is where should they go next,vietnam,phillipines,malaysia all because of more favourable visa options, not much talk about whether they would invest in property or not.